I like Zorn and hope he succeeds. I at least hope he makes it through the season because putting in an interim midway through will not do anything.
Still, there are basic things wrong with his game plan and play calling. I have already listed a number of them and those are just the things that I can see with a very limited perspective. Deeps also mentioned a few things. Some play calling is just mind boggling. I don't understand why we try a gadget hook and ladder call at the end of the Lion game. The Lions had everyone playing back to make sure no one got behind them. I actually like gadget plays every now and then but you have to know when to call them. We were at the Lion like 30 yard line. Take a shot at the end zone. It's not even a hail mary. Favre and the Vikings had a very similar situation against the 49ers and scored at the end of the game. Sure, chances are slim but that has a better chance of succeeding than the hook and ladder. If you are going to do that play, do it when you might catch the defense off guard. Same thing with the 3rd and goal from the 5 halfback option. I'm not against the play but do it on first or second down when you might catch the defense with more D linemen and less coverage guys.
There have been a number of very questionable calls. The players keep saying that it's them and the scheme isn't flawed and it's just execution. Now either all these guys are too stupid or the scheme needs to be adjusted.
Riggo, Lavar, Sonny all have issues with the play calling. Maybe Zorny should give up the play calling responsibilities. I keep hoping for improvement but the offense seems to only be regressing. Robs can keep crying that it is just the O line but it isn't just that.
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Interestingly, Jerry Jones has just come out and said that Phillips will remain coach through this season.
I'm not a fan of Jerry Jones but he makes pretty good sense when he said, "Two years ago the Giants were seemingly not in disarray, but they were in trouble," Jones said. "It was also absolutely expected that something was going to happen with the coach, [Tom] Coughlin. ... Well, that same year they won the Super Bowl. You've got to be mindful that this is a long, long journey. ... A lot can happen from the beginning to the end."
I'm not in favor of letting JZ go in the middle of the season. The funny thing about him is, he seems like a good coach. He's thorough in his preparation. The players seem very motivated going into games. He's got some qualities of a good leader. He's managed to win nearly half of his games despite learning his trade on the fly and with some severe depth issues on the roster.
JZ's problem is strategy and managing the game on the field, particularly with in-game adjustments. All of his high-profile critics (radio show hosts, ex-'Skins, etc.) say he's too stubborn and he's waiting for his system to work instead of trying to adjust the approach to his players' strengths. That's not going to work, and unless he realizes that the approach needs to be different, he's not going to succeed.
I like JZ. He seems like a good guy. The players seem to like him, but they probably have already started questioning his approach. Given his history here and the trends that don't seem to change, I won't have a problem if he's let go at the end of the season given that there are so many proven winners available out there who are ready to take a coaching job.
I wish him well and maybe he will be able to turn things around but I too won't have a big issue if he leaves. As I have mentioned, I really think he makes a better QB coach or possibly a coordinator because he seems like less of a motivator and guy that can address the entire team and more a guy that can relate in smaller groups.
I'm sure you can find questionable calls for every team in the NFL every week. Chicago fans rip Lovie every week. Philly fans love to rip Reid every week. And these teams win. Oakland, KC, Dallas, Miami, Houston, Seattle, San Diego, Detroit, etc. I'm sure there are questions fans have about Belichek from time to time. If Portis completes that pass no one cares. You are bitching about nothing in my opinion.
I'll still say we don't know whether Zorn is a good coach. Coaches need players - especially offensive and defensive linemen - to have any sort of chance.
Certainly you rip the guys nuts off when you are the owner and you are openly interviewing folks and allowing the speculation to float that you are angry and about the change coaches. That only makes his job tougher. Every day players have to read rumors and answer questions about Zorn.
Then, to make matters worse, Zorn has to spend hours every week with Danny Boy explaining the offensive troubles. What a waste of time - maybe if he had those hours to work on film study and his game plan things would be better.
I don't really care whether Zorn stays or goes. He and JC are my two favorite Deadskins and they will both be gone after this season - I think Zorn won't make it past the bye week because Danny Boy is such an idiot.
Speaking of Sonny - he wanted Zorn to put in Todd Collins at halftime of the Tampa game - that would have been a mistake. He also said Todd Collins would have won all four of the last games easily. TC is a stationary target - with that O-line he would be dead meat.
He won't turn anything around with that O-line and to think otherwise is just crazy.
Robs, your favorite Redskins are the ones that have left and/or may be on their way out. The ones you REALLY love are the ones that somehow find their way on to the Bears.
Robs, the plays that I called out, would you call those good play calls?
The O line in the first 4 games gave JC enough protection (certainly the protection was at least average by NFL standards). Don't you think we should have seen some type of offensive improvement?
Robs...First, I don't think anyone expects a dramatic turn around with this O-line. Simple adjustments are what Redskins Nation is holding its collective breath for. He's showing that he'll stick with the same tired game plan and personnel that hasn't worked for nearly a season and a half. Second, how do you know Zorn isn't sitting with Danny Boy each week talking about how they need better personnel? No one agrees that it should be this way, but Danny Boy is obviously involved with player acquisitions. Shouldn't he get the coaches input as to where there's a lack of talent or depth? Once again, you are basing your arguments on pure assumptions.
The only way Zorn is let go mid-season is if we lose to the Chiefs in another miserable game, then don't show up against the Iggles. Danny Boy should know better than to give up mid-season. He did it before when his team was still in the thick of things and it backfired on him. If we reach 2-5 at the bye, for all intents and purposes, the season is lost and saying bye to Zorn won't hurt.
Every week, every game there are a few questionable play calls. I'm not saying those weren't questionable, I'M SAYING THEY HAPPEN IN EVERY GAME TO EVERY TEAM.
Zorn has said he has had to pare down his playbook to prevent disaster because of the O-line. If you don't believe him that is fine.
The Deadskins have given up 14 sacks largely against the worst teams in the NFL. If you think that is OK, then fine.
Tampa Bay - first pass play, SACK. Second pass play, SACK/FUMBLE. After that, you think Zorn didn't adjust his play calling?
Deeps - For Zorn to have to spend any time discussing personnel/strategy/game planning whatever is a waste of time. Snyder has a football IQ of 10 - it must be irritating as Hell.
Stay or go, Zorn or anyone else won't win more than 6 games this year with this team of stiffs. If they don't win this week, they won't win more than 5.
The reason Robs knows what the conversations are is because he is CARNAC THE MAGNIFICENT!!!!!!
What can I say - I'm a freaking genius.
Robs is obviously wearing thin on JKSD and rightfully so...Robs, to no surprise, you're not understanding the position that you are so blindly arguing against.
The line stinks...NOW THAT THE STARTERS ARE OUT. Can we agree on that or do you stand by your original position that the line sucked with Samuels and Thomas healthy? Zorn admitted to paring down the playbook last week due to the O-line play. EVERYONE, INCLUDING ZORN AND VINNY, ADMIT THE O-LINE STINKS NOW. Why do you keep bringing up the point?
Zorn's playcalling is questionable...EVERYONE is questioning the playcalling. We run on first down EVERYTIME. We run gadget plays WHEN EVERYONE KNOWS THEY WON'T WORK. JKSD and I aren't the only ones questioning the playcalling. Zorn's playcalling STINKS!
The offense has FOUR FORMER PRO-BOWLERS STARTING. A FIFTH JUST WENT DOWN WITH AN INJURY. There is CLEARLY enough talent on the team to be better than 4-9 in the last 13 games and there is more than adequate talent to score more than 14 points/game. WE ALL AGREE that the talent level is not quite where it should be, but you've got to be a complete loony to believe that the terrible level of production is simply due to a "bunch of stiffs." ZORN'S GAMEPLAN is a problem. Every objective fan of the team out there knows it. If you want to ignore what everyone is saying, that's your problem.
Snyderatto is a problem. We all agree on that. That's the macro-level assessment. At a micro-level, the product on the field should be better than it is. That's on Zorny. If he doesn't make obviously necessary adjustments due to his stubborness, then good riddance.
Carnac make me laughy thinking he so smart.
I said that Thomas and Samuels wouldn't make it through the year and the Deadskins didn't do enough to fix their problem.
I think Thomas and Samuels were on the downside anyway - but obviously they would be better than what they have. Only the Deadskins brass and apparently you two think that Thomas and Samuels could have made it through the year.
I keep saying you'll get your wish that Zorn will be gone. I get it, you think Zorn is a problem. My view is that there is little chance for Zorn to be successful with the O-line and constant turmoil created by management. We disagree. No problem.
If Zorn goes on to another team and finds success then we will have some evidence that supports my position. If not, your position is supported. If the Deadskins continue to ignore their O-line issues as they have, but all of a sudden start winning with a new coach then your position is supported. We'll see.
No one is saying we're going on a winning streak if the coach is replaced. No one is saying the team can win consistently despite the O-line problems. All we're saying is that Zorn is not maximizing the talent he has because his decisions are highly questionable. This team should be better than it is. That doesn't mean it's a playoff team. It just means winning 9-7 against the TERRIBLE Rams, or 16-13 against the TERRIBLE Bucs is a clear indicator of the team underachieving. That's in large part due to Zorn. He has options. He can change his punt returner. He can change his QB. He can start his backup guards at guard and keep his tackles at tackle. He can stop swapping receivers in and out even after they make a critical play. He can stop running that useless stretch play when he doesn't have a line to run it behind. He can stop running on EVERY 1st down. He can put some faith in his QB and not call a run from the opponent's 1-yard line.
Get it, Carnac!?
I've made my position clear. You have made your position clear.
It appears you understand that putting faith in Samuels and Thomas making it through the season was foolish.
The only thing left is to see what happens after Zorn is fired. When you get a new coach we'll see how that coach maximizes the team's "talent." When Zorn moves on, we'll see how well he coaches his new players.
So your "clear" position includes:
1. 5 pro-bowlers on offense is a collection of stiffs.
2. Zorn has a good offensive mind despite coordinating his offense to 16 points per game over the last 21 games?
3. Zorn's playcalling isn't a problem.
4. Zorn is making the most of what he has in terms of talent.
That's it. I'm done. You are clearly arguing just to argue because if that's what you stand by, you have no idea what you're talking about.
1. The offensive line is a bunch of stiffs. Portis is done. Sellers is no superstar and does not scare anyone. So you have Moss and Cooley with a bunch of stiffs. There are certainly far more talented teams offensively.
2. Cannot call plays you would like to call when you have a weak offensive line.
3. His play calls are affected by his offensive line.
4. Yes.
Deeps do you agree with me on the following:
1. The Deadskins recognized that their line was terrible the second half of last year.
2. The Deadskins didn't do enough to upgrade their line in the offseason.
3. The Deadskins were foolish to think that Thomas and Samuels would make it through the year.
4. Zorn has had to adjust his play calling because of the deficiencies on his offensive line.
5. Portis is not the back he once was.
6. Portis is not well liked on his team because he doesn't practice and is considered a snitch to the owner.
7. Zorn has been completely undermined by his GM and owner's actions.
Let me start by saying a lot of what you outlined has NOTHING to do with in-game performance and efficiency.
To your points.
1. Yes.
2. Correct. I've stated over and over...should have drafted a tackle.
3. Pure speculation. I say hind sight is 2020. Samuels came off a Pro-Bowl season and Thomas wasn't a concern because of seemingly adequate depth at guard (Dockery, Rinehart, Montgomery, etc.). The best solution would have been to draft a tackle.
4. Agreed, but his playcalling still consisted of stretch plays behind Heyer at the goal line and 5 step drops instead of shotgun and/or rollouts.
5. Portis has lost a step, but he can't run against 8 in the box any more effectively.
6. Pointless comment. Who cares.
7. Undermined, yes. Intentionally undermined? That's speculation. Zorn says his conversations with Snyder are about solving the problems...not about his job security. I'll take his word for it.
Not addressing the offensive line, having a line that you now admit affects play calling, having a running back that has lost a step, and having players have to comment on the coaches job status all week instead of focusing on game plans doesn't affect in-game performance?
Like I said before it is a waste for Zorn to talk to Snyder so much. But, you think Zorn would come out and say, Snyder is an ass and should just let me coach? Of course not.
OK. I see where you stand.
I would like to think that the more "objective" JKSD would disagree with you on many of these points.
Frankly Deeps, I think you wrote that it was crazy to think that Thomas AND Samuels would make it through the season and are now just changing your mind.
Now you're putting words in my mouth to suit your argument.
Here's what I believe. Don't twist what I'm saying.
We should have drafted a tackle because Heyer sucks...Not because of the risk of injury to Samuels.
The play calling was affected because the plays he was calling were not well suited for the talent on the field. Peppers is on Heyer and you run right behind him at the goal line? 4th and 3 and you line up in a bunch formation to run against 9 in the box when your best two O-linemen are out? I'll say it again...Zorn is trying to get players to fit his system rather than adjusting to fit his players.
If Zorn says his meetings with Snyder are about one thing and they're not is to speculate. That's what you're doing, which essentially makes that point of your baseless.
Good day sir.
Deeps - I don't want to put words in your mouth. Here are two quotes from the big long set of posts we had earlier this week:
"I said you were right about this line. I was hoping for the best despite having a couple of guys who were clearly on their last legs (Samuels and Thomas)."
"As a fan, I had to hope the line would hold up. Predicting that Samuels and Thomas wouldn't be able to hold up was a realistic assumption, but not one I fully expected."
I think you were clear that you did not expect Samuels and Thomas to hold up. You saw it, I saw it, I am not sure if JKSD saw it, but a good GM would have addressed it.
Let's take the play call where Portis ran right and got the safety. What would your call have been? Your LT was even worse than your RT. Pro Bowl fullback Mike Sellers blew his block also.
Now you are blaming Zorn for that call. So what would your ingenious call have been on 2nd and 8 from the 3 yard line?
Do you think many coaches spend time explaining losses and strategy with owners during the season? How many winning organizations do you think it happens with? ZERO!!! The only organization I think it may happen with is the Cowboys (and I'm not even certain of that). The Cowboys haven't won a playoff game in 15 years.
JZ hasn't had to radically adjust any playcalling until this past week. The first 4 weeks he could have called whatever he wanted. The line play was solid enough to run the scheme. The play calling was still questionable and there were a number of VERY strange calls including not knowing when to call a timeout.
If the players love JZ so much, they should have executed on the field. Schefter and Peter King both said that if the players just play, JZ won't need to worry about his job and the players won't need Snyder to give an endorsement.
No question we should have addressed the O line more. We were all hopeful that the line would stay healthy but I think that was hopeful optimism. Sure, because of the injuries, playcalling will have to change. It's another opportunity for players to step up and for the coaches to step up and shine. Lets see what happens.
Love wins football games? OK hippie.
No. I said I didn't fully expect both to get hurt. Regardless, I've always said we needed to draft a tackle for depth because Heyer isn't a starter.
Running Portis left from the one was dumb considering who was on the D-line and who the tackle was. You limit the chance of a safety by running stright behind Dock, Rabach, and Sellers. So what if it goes for two yards...It's not a high risk play. If that was defended, give JC an option to drop back and hit Cooley for a few more yards.
I don't like that Zorn has to answer to Snyder. Snyder and Vinny should be talking personnel and leave the coaching to Zorn. It is what it is though. But if you think those meetings involve anything more than Snyder and Zorn trying to figure out what's wrong, you're speculating.
I'm not sure he's speculating. Remember...HE'S CARNAC!!!!!!
I don't even understand the hippie comment.
I think it is clear what you wrote.
On 1st down Campbell dove up the middle for 2 yards. Passing the ball from the end zone would be even more risky than what Zorn called. So basically you are mad that Zorn didn't call a dive play.
I disagree. There was greater risk to call a run left, because everyone and their mother knows all the 'Skins ever do when we're backed up is run. Zorn doesn't trust Campbell, who happens to be one of his best players, to run the offense. He's too stuck on this notion of perfection out of his QB to realize he's making his offense too predictable.
And you're right. I would have preferred a dive play. It would have been better than off tackle left given the circumstances.
It's not clear.
Please shed some light, oh great Carnac.
It was off-tackle right. They couldn't run off-tackle left because Batiste was there.
If Zorn had called a play action pass or a quick pass and Campbell was sacked or there was a holding penalty in the end zone for a safety I'm sure you would complain about that also. Or if there was a fumble or tipped pass for an interception you would have been all over him.
The O-line did not allow for a pass play to be called. On almost every pass play against Carolina, JC was under pressure.
So you basically are mad that Zorn didn't just dive the ball up the middle. For that, Zorn gets your wrath.
If you cannot call a run left or right, and there is great risk of your QB being sacked, and your only option is running a dive up the middle then how the heck are you supposed to get creative with your offense?
You said if his players LOVE Zorn so much they would execute.
It isn't love that is preventing them from executing. It is their horrible O-line.
But since you think it is just a matter of love, then you are a HIPPIE!!!!!
GET IT!!!!!
Take off the turban, Carnac and rest your brains a little bit.
You seem to be thinking too much.
You are crying about one play but it isn't just one play. Get over it.
The players are clamoring for management to endorse their coach. If the players want to shut the media up, then they should perform. Again, the line has not been so bad in the first four games that the entire scheme/playbook had to be revamped. You say that the players love Zorny. If they love him so much, they would execute.
I have issues with the playcalling but I am certain there are execution issues as well. The players keep talking about that too. If the players are consistently not executing, as a coach figure out what the problem is and why they aren't executing. If they aren't executing on a continual basis, replace them. If Sellers keeps missing blocks, tell him he better fix it or get out and put Yoder in. If Kelly is not running routes, put someone else in. Put in Thomas. Put in Mitchell. Put in someone else that gets it.
That's the thing about Singletary. He doesn't care who you are. You don't perform you get benched. You complain of being benched, you go to the locker room.
Put players in a position to execute. Play to the strengths of the individuals and the collective team and hold people accountable. Example: Orakpo cannot cover. He is a pure pass rusher. Let him get after the QB.
There are a number of issues that seem to fall on the coaches. I'm sure players need to execute better but at Week 6 coaches should be able to identify what those things are and correct them by now.
Deeps brought up the one play we are discussing.
I'm not sure if you had a problem or not with the call.
The Portis halfback option. You had a problem with that? Wasn't that being creative? If it worked would you have said, "terrible call." What would you rather do?
I'm sure we can look at any call and go through it. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. It seems silly to question a few calls.
As for taking Kelly out. Vinny and Danny have made it perfectly clear who should play. If you don't believe that then you disagree with Boswell's piece on "Vinny's Guys." They are so desperate to show that they can draft well that they force the hand of the coach with Kelly, DT, etc.
Blame Blache for Orakpo. Zorn has nothing to do with it.
Campbell had a good line this week. He was asked if he yells at players. His answer was basically, "it doesn't help to hollar at guys who cannot play." I am paraphrasing but his point was when someone cannot do something, yelling at them makes little sense. That is the problem for these Deadskins - they just aren't good enough.
You are going to have you new coach soon enough. Then if these guys all of a sudden start playing then you can tell me I am wrong.
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