Redskins BLEW IT!!!! We gave the game away to the Eagles. We gave them turnovers. We gave them big plays. We had penalties. Just plain ugly. Here are where I have my biggest issues:
1. I thought the defense was very good for 99% of the game. However, they were REALLY bad for that other 1%. They gave up two HUGE plays that helped the Eagles win this game. Both of the plays were on the safeties. The Eagles first drive with the end around to Jackson, Landry bit on the handoff and then compounded his mistake by taking a bad angle at Jackson. Jackson's speed got him around the end and past Landry and into the end zone. Even more egregious was the freaking 3rd and 23 bomb to a wide open Jackson for a TD. WTF?!!! Given the way Rogers kind of released on the WR, looked like a zone coverage and Horton just blew it! Curious why Horton was playing so much rather than Doughty. The only thing I can think of is that the Eagles have fast WRs and Horton is faster than Doughty but he just blew that. That was one of a few killer plays. Still, outside of those two disasterous plays, the defense I thought was very good. Sad to see such a strong effort be wasted because of a couple of individuals on two plays. Honestly, you take those two plays away, the Eagles only managed to get something like 140 yards of total offense.
2. WTF is ARE doing returning punts?!!!! The guy can't run and now he can't even catch. The Skins are down 17-0 but mount a good drive leading to a Devin Thomas TD. The defense then steps up and forces the Eagles into a three and out which I think included tackles for losses and/or a sack. The crowd got back into it and you could feel the momentum start to shift a bit. They punt and it hits ARE right in the freaking face mask. There wasn't even anyone around the guy. Eagles recover deep in our territory and the defense has to get back on the field. That was a devastating play. Fortunately we held the Eagles to a FG making the score 20-7. I just don't understand why ARE is back there. Put D. Hall back there. Put Devin Thomas back there. Thomas said in the post game show that he wants to return punts/kicks. Let the guy contribute. He is a big, strong, fast guy and I'm sure he can't do any worse than ARE. I seriously don't understand what the fascination is with ARE back there.
3. O line sucks! Not much more needs to be said about that. If these guys were going up against no one, JC would still get sacked. They are a joke and we can't do anything with that group. Sad. Assuming we have a top 5 pick in the draft, we MUST get the best tackle available. Our next pick needs to again be an O lineman. We need to get another O lineman in FA. That group needs to be completely overhauled.
4. Playcalling seemed to be more aggressive. I actually liked the calls but execution was poor on a number of occasions. Devin Thomas said after the game that the calls were more aggressive and he liked it. Actually, that was one of the first times I had a chance to hear Thomas and he seems really anxious to get on the field and contribute. He made some nice plays yesterday and I'd just like to see more of him.
5. JC was okay. I understand he was under duress for much of the game but he had his share of issues. His muff of the snap on the Skins first drive was bad. I still want him to be more decisive on tucking and running when he is scrambling. This has been a big issue for him. The play where he stepped up in the pocket and scrambed towards the line of scrimmage and then was about to throw but got hit from behind and fumbled was on him. He should have just tucked and ran. I know he had a bum ankle but just get the safe 3-5 yards instead of risking something. Also, he missed wide open WRs on 3 or 4 plays which hurt. He still needs to anticipate the routes and throw before the WRs break and trust his arm, his WR, and the play call. I understand it is hard to concentrate when you are under constant duress and thinking that you are going to be under constant duress but he has to do better.
6. Attitude/intensity is a BIG issue. I was talking to a friend about this before the game and Scott has actually mentioned that we need a coach that can motivate. I think I had more of an attitude before that these are professionals and shouldn't need motivation at this level. I was wrong. There is no intensity or sense of urgency with this team. It was mentioned a number of times by Jaws yesterday and you can see it on the field. We don't have any real leaders on this team that can get this team going. Zorn isn't that guy. JC, Portis, Cooley, Moss aren't those guys. The closest thing we got is London Fletcher but he is all by himself. After every game, it is always the same thing. "We are improving." "We have to regroup and not panic and find a way to get a win." Blah, blah, blah. That's all JZ and JC have to say and they say it in such a monotone voice that it really doesn't mean anything. We need leaders that are going to get in people's faces and make things happen. When Sean Taylor died, the team really rallied. It was like the country bonding after 9/11. It was a special time. The team played with passion, inspiration, and motivation. Sad it took a player's death to create that type of feeling. I saw a clip recently of Tom Brady during the Buffalo Bill game this year where it looked like the Bills were going to win easily. After Brady threw a TD to bring them within a TD of winning, he was on the sideline marching up and down looking at his teammates telling them, "WE'RE NOT DONE YET!!!" The thing is you believe that guy when he says it. Brady is a killer. On gameday if he lines up against his entire family, he is going to find a way to kill them. As B-Mitch said in the post game, we need guys to put their feet on the opponents neck and then lift up the other foot. We don't have that. I was sickened seeing Portis with McIntosh and Rogers on the sideline with a few minutes left in the game laughing. UNACCEPTABLE. Robs mentioned recently how Jimmy Johnson during the Cowboys early struggles before they turned things around, there was a Cowboy laughing on the sideline late in a game when they were getting blown out. Johnson cut the guy the next day. We need that. There is absolutely no leadership or guys that can create that inspiration, intensity, motivation, etc. that this team needs.
All in all just a frustrating game because we had opportunities to win this game but we gave it to them. I'm not saying we are a good team because clearly we are not but we just find ways to shoot ourselves in the foot and beat ourselves. We also just look like we don't care. That is embarrassing.
37 comments:
To your points...
1. Agree. The D looked really good for almost the entire game. McNabb was under a lot of pressure and the Iggles couldn't run the ball at all. Those two big plays were the difference in the game. The problem is attitude and accountability, which you hit on in #6.
2. ARE is useless as a punt returner. Zorn said he keeps him back there despite the poor return yardage because he's sure handed. Well, now there's no reason to keep him back there. We tried Moss and Hall a few times. It seems that the coaches know ARE's not getting it done...They should have figured that out last year.
3. O-line is a huge part of the O's problem. We can't run the ball and Campbell had to side step rushers all night, that is, when he wasn't getting planted into the turf for a sack. Hopefully Levi Jones can play because Heyer blows. Sucks that we are relying on garbage from other teams and out-of-work players to build our line. That's on the front office.
4. The playcalling was fine...actually a bit improved. Still, without the proper talent, especially on the O-line, it wouldn't matter if Bill Walsh is calling plays.
5. JC missed A LOT of reads out there today. The safeties were basically ignoring D. Thomas all night and he was blowing by his corner on deep routes consistently. Unfortunately, JC was locked in on the other side of the field a lot. I'm starting to lean towards JC being a huge part of our ineffectiveness. Maybe if the line could protect, he would have seen the other side of the field. Then again, we've been unable to score even with a good line. Unfortunately, we already know TC can't solve the problem, so I'm fine with JC staying in at QB.
6. Well said. If our guys are on the sidelines laughing, joking, and by some accounts last night, dancing to the music...and no one does anything to stop it, then we've already lost. If there's no passion for the game, then there's no way we can win. If coaches don't see a need to light a fire under these guys, then fire the coaches when rebuilding starts.
Rebuilding...that is where we're headed, hopefully.
The game wasn't really that close - but at least the Deadskins didn't completely embarrass themselves as Chicago did this week.
This O-line is going to give up 5 sacks a game and that is totally disruptive to flow and success in a game. That is the unfortunate thing. I'm not sure what people expect from JC when he is sacked 6 times and hit on most other plays.
The INT for a TD was caused by horrible line play more than JC.
The D was pretty good for most of the game. You hit the main points, but the big plays are killers and for that reason you cannot say that the D played particularly well.
I didn't think play-calling was any better or any worse, so I guess that was a win for Bingo Sherminator. Maybe he will get better in coming weeks as he understands the personnel - but I doubt it because of the limitations on the O-line.
The bye comes at a great time - but I really don't see much to look forward to with the remaining games - especially the next 5. If they win one of those it would be a surprise to me. So 3-9 after 10 is about where I expect the team to be going into the last 6.
Couple of thoughts on Deep's comments.
1. The Eagles players were dancing - I didn't see Deadskin players acting inappropriately on the sidelines.
2. I didn't see any difference in playcalling - and I certainly don't think that was a major problem. They still didn't generate much offense.
3. The O-line problems became even more apparent because they played a better defense. That is what we will see from here on out. How many sacks are Atlanta, Denver, and the Cowboys going to have in coming weeks - it is scary to think about if you are JC.
4. I have a general comment about Jaws' commentary last night. He seemed really Hell-bent on criticizing JC. I was a little surprised by how critical he was. When McNabb missed the read on the double move he laughed it off, but when JC came off of Moss to go to the cutting receiver he was critical. Frankly, I didn't see anything wrong with the read. If he hits that pass (he did make a bad throw) they Deadskins have a 20+ yard gain.
I actually thought Gruden wanted to contradict Jaws even more than he did, but bit his tongue a bit. Later in the game it seemed like Jaws recognized that JC was struggling because of the horrible line play.
Fans called in to the radio shows after the game saying guys were laughing and joking on the sideline when they were clearly about to lose. I don't care how you twist that, it's inappropriate. Show some heart and have some pride in your work. If you're failing and you can ignore that you're failing and crack jokes and dance, it's clear that you don't care about succeeding...Or you identify success a different way, such as by the game check you're about to get despite playing a terrible game.
Fat Albert ripped the team after the game for not having any heart.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4597972
Say what you want about him lying on the field like a beached whale when he gets tired, but he gets it. He wants to win and maybe his words will stick.
I thought the playcalling was a bit more aggressive. It's not the biggest issue however. Clearly, the line is pathetic. We need three studs to revamp that line. I am fine with Dock and Rabach but the other three have to go.
The intensity thing really bothers me. We just don't have any passion or guys that can bring about that passion. Fat Albert said his thing but he says it and goes away and I'm sure guys just brush it off. We need respected leaders (coaches and players) to call players out and hold them accountable. We need them to do this on a consistent basis. By and large it has been attitude that revamped the 9ers and Dolphins and Jets. Sure, there were acquisitions but by and large the culture changed and strong, vocal leaders were installed that weren't going to put up with joking on the sidelines when you are getting beaten by a divisional opponent on national tv.
I don't think I noticed an inordinate amount of JC criticism. Not saying that it didn't happen. I know some of it I agreed with but not sure if I felt that they were laying it on him. I thought Gruden's assessment of the game was fair.
All we need is a coach who holds his players accountable and a QB who will get in his teammates faces. It doesn't take much more than a couple of strong personalities. The problem is, a culture change is needed and that has to come from the top down, and that is harder to do.
Fans call in and say all kinds of things. I didn't see anything unusual. I saw Portis throw his helmet in disgust. I saw Eagles players dancing during the game. I saw JC talking to Zorn and guys around him seemed into the game. If it happened then that is a bad sign, but I'm not sure how much stock you can put into some drunk fans who paid a small fortune to watch there team lose again.
Fat Albert wants to win, but he really wanted to get paid. If his concern was winning then he wouldn't have come to the Deadskins.
As for ripping his team - I saw his comments live last night. He was just kind of subdued and when he was asked if he said anything in the locker room or to other players he kind of shrugged and basically said no. That's not leadership - that is whining.
JKSD - the Miami Dolphins completely turned over their entire roster from the 1-15 team. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the Jets. They were basically a playoff team with a horrible QB down the stretch. They aren't playing great football - certainly not better than most of last year. I'm not really sure how good San Francisco is this year. We'll see.
Attitude is important, but having an O-line is way more important. The D is going to get sick and tired of playing well and losing. At 2-5 the season is pretty much over. Guys in the locker room know it, but we'll see how they respond in coming weeks.
I think the worst is yet to come as they continue to play good teams.
Deeps - what is Zorn supposed to do with the O-line he was left with. You want him to yell at them? You want him to cut them? You want him to fine them? How do you hold players who don't have the talent to play at a high level accountable?
A QB who gets in people's faces? That's all you need? You must be joking.
If Peyton Manning or Tom Brady was the QB of the Deadskins they would be better than JC, but they would still have a losing record because they wouldn't have any time to throw (and more than likely they would both get hurt).
Robs...Just because the roster has gaping holes doesn't mean Zorn shouldn't hold them accountable. When a rookie linebacker Tweets on his twitter page that the fans suck, and there are no repercussions, that's not leadership. When the team is clearly failing and you keep saying, "We did some good things. We had some tough breaks. We have some things to fix during the week." Blah, Blah, Blah. That's not holding players accountable. When players skip practice all week and still expect to play, that's not setting the tone.
Clearly, the roster blows and it's tough to do anything to start winning when the O-line can't block, but as a coach, Zorn and others still have to instill a sense of accountability. At this point, with this roster of divas and marginal talent, it's a bit too late. That's why I say a culture change is needed. This whole thing has to be blown up and bringing in a strong coach and having a QB with some balls will help.
That rookie linebacker doesn't play - should he have been cut?
I'm just asking - how do you want him to hold the O-line accountable? What should he do with them - make them run some laps, fine them, what?
I think the LB should have been cut. Other coaches won't tolerate such actions out of players. We seem to just ignore it.
I'm not saying we need to hold the O-line accountable for an obvious inability to perform at a high level. I'm saying the clowns who are sitting around laughing and dancing at the end of a drubbing can't be allowed to lose sight of the situation without repercussions. Fine them. Make them run laps until they puke. Stand them up in the team meeting and have them explain why they were laughing. Treat them like children who need discipline if they're going to act like children. Other coaches do it. Again, we just seem to ignore it.
He didn't like the fans booing so you want to cut him? He wasn't dancing around or joking, he was mad that fans booed the team after a win. FOR THAT YOU WANT TO CUT HIM?
As for the dancing players - if there were actually any dancing players I would agree. But I didn't see them. Now I am a Deadskin hater, and I would love to joke around about Deadskin dancing fools after a loss, but I didn't see them and frankly I am skeptical that there were any.
Robs, yeah, I saw the Eagles players dancing early in the game. I saw JC with JZ and Rabach looking at the faxed pictures. It wasn't drunk fans that saw the Skins laughing. They showed it. Portis was on the sideline with McIntosh and Scott told me it was also Rogers and they were laughing. Portis said something and the other guys started laughing. That is UNACCEPTABLE.
There is no doubt in my mind when Jaws said that he was at Redskin Park over the weekend and he just didn't see any type of sense of urgency or passion that that wasn't true. You can see it in the players faces and hear it in their voices. We do not have any real leaders.
I saw what Fat Albert said as well and heard the tone of his voice. He is not a leader. Again, he will say what he said. I don't doubt he believes what he said but he is not the kind of guy to call a team meeting or even get in guys faces and tell them to man up. The only guy even closely that resembles that is Fletcher but we need a few respected guys that can help raise the level of intensity.
Our coach needs to do that. I appreciate his positive attitude but we need a culture shift now.
Listen to your boy, B-Mitch. He said that the Skins are always bringing in consultants. He would gladly be a consultant and go in there and get in peoples faces. Again, he said we need players to have more of a killer attitude and put one foot on the opponents throat and then lift the other foot up.
Singletary doesn't put up with any B.S. He has totally changed the culture there. They haven't revamped the personnel but they are playing much more inspired football. I agree that Parcells did a little more cleaning house but still it was largely an attitude shift. You can't go from 1-15 to 11-5 in one year without changing the culture and the attitude. Rex Ryan brought an attitude and his defense has been solid. I'm not saying we need to be calling out the Cowboys the way the Jets did the Pats but there has to be a sense of urgency. There needs to be a shift in attitude and a swagger and arrogance that we are good.
Lavar Arrington was saying on his show a week or two ago that he would love if someone (he suggested Fletcher) just stepped up and said, "WE ARE GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS, PERIOD!!" Even if we didn't get there just say it and get teammates to believe it.
Again, guys are laughing on the sideline as they are getting beaten by a divisional opponent. UNACCEPTABLE.
They weren't dancing. They were laughing.
The caller said Levi Jones was dancing. Maybe he was just happy to be on a team again, but if coaches don't do anything to stop the stupidity, then the inmates start running the asylum and all is lost because there's no system of authority.
Yeah. I said cut the clown. Make him an example. Like you said, Jimmy Johnson did it. The 'Skins don't do ANYTHING that approaches that level of discipline.
Jason Reid covers some comments from CP. He clearly isn't the vocal leader a veteran like him can be. If it's not in him, that's fine. The problem is, if he isn't and JC isn't, then who is?
From Reid's post:
Portis said each player must continue to show up to work, and that professionalism is at a premium during difficult times.
"No matter what the case is, you still go to go out and play," Portis said. "All of a sudden, you don't go on the field and just lay down. We still got to go out and play, we still got to go out and execute, we still got to go out and get better."
But Portis also dismissed the idea that veterans can handle the situation for others.
"I don't try to make sure other guys handle it," Portis said. "Other guys got to be accountable for themselves. I got to be accountable for me. I got to make sure Clinton Portis, No. 26 for the Washington Redskins show up and do my thing. Trying to be accountable for other guys, I can't do."
Levi Jones was dancing?
I'm not surprised CP was laughing.
All that said, the Deadskins would have some chance to do somthing if they just had an O-line. Attitude and intensity are fine, but they would have that with an O-line that could block.
Disagree.
Of course we need a revamped O line but that alone does not breed attitude.
Look at Marty Schottenheimer for example. That guy knows how to motivate and get the most out of his current players. When he was the Redskin coach, they started 05 but ended up winning 8 of their last 11 and narrowly missed the post season. He did that largely by holding players accountable. He changed the culture. He fired Cerrato. He didn't like management interfering in his practices and told them in no uncertain terms to get off of his field. This of course all led to his firing but he was building something.
He was selling his schpiel and the players bought into it.
Now, Robs, don't misunderstand. Motivation by isn't enough. Again, we need a revamped O line. I just don't like the current attitude on the team right now. Players laughing. Players not really feeling any sense of urgency. Players giving lackluster performances and continuing to say that they aren't executing and there is nothing wrong with the game plan and just giving the same stuff about having to regroup and improve...blah, blah, blah. It's the coaches job to hold these guys accountable and make sure that they are executing. We are in week 8 and they are still saying that they aren't executing. That's the thing about a Schottenheimer team. He will make them execute properly.
It's clear attitude is an issue. Many former players are noticing the same thing with the Redskins (B-Mitch, Lavar, Jaws).
Maybe. I think attitude would improve with wins. I just don't think the attitude issue is that much of an issue.
Sure attitude improves with wins. Sure people would be happy but attitude and discipline and swagger can help bring about wins. Discipline is part of attitude.
Portis being able to do whatever he wants is not discipline. Players laughing on the sideline in a divisional beatdown on national tv is not discipline. Players continuing to talk about not being able to execute is not discipline. Leaders (players and coaches) can bring about discipline. They can create an attitude of "we will be perfect" that can make a difference.
Even I have played on teams where discipline was enforced even in youth league teams and those were the better teams. I remember playing where you expected to win. We practiced hard and if you were late to practice, you were punished. Winning mattered. I remember games where we were down and time was running out and guys would actually start crying on the field feeling the pressure of losing. We had decent talent but it was that swagger and attitude that we had that was a big difference maker for us.
I also played on other teams where it was more about fun and guys just didn't care. We didn't practice as hard and we didn't play as hard.
Again, a Schottenheimer coached team would be better. He wouldn't allow many of the things that go on at Redskin Park to go on.
Frankly I'm surprised that you don't get it. You've played on teams. Your high school football team was not overly talented. It was a small team in comparison with competition but the coaches infused the players with a feeling of being good and being able to beat bigger teams. That is what made that team good.
Again, I'm surprised I even have to remind you of these things.
Two things - you don't know how my HS football team operated and that was HS!
Setting aside the fact that it was HS and not the NFL, if we didn't have a solid O-line and our QB was getting sacked/hit every other time he went back to pass we would have lost every week.
Schottenheimer is a good motivator, but he would not have had this O-line so sure he would have been better. His teams were always good up front which is why he has had good success. You think Schottenheimer could win with this O-line by just giving motivational speeches every week? If it was that simple to win in the NFL, just hire Tony Robbins or Barack Obama when his presidency is over.
I'm surprised that you cannot see the obvious - given that you played football also.
Another example was our high school soccer team. We had a bunch of yahoos on that team that didn't care. There was the one game where a couple of the guys showed up to a game drunk! Are you kidding me?! The coach should have pulled those guys from the field and kicked them off of the team immediately. I liked the coach. He was a good guy and certainly knew soccer but he wasn't a disciplinarian. I never felt like that team really cared.
Sure, we could have used better talent but we got thrashed pretty much every game and we were better than that.
That was HS!
There is a big difference between drunk yahoos showing up for games and not having an offensive line.
Kicking the drunk yahoos off the team and yelling at some guys may have helped - certainly I can agree with that idea.
But that is irrelevant to trying to run an offense with no offensive line. You can't kick the current linemen off the team. And yelling at them won't make much difference. They suck whether I yell at them or not.
Now, if you want to get on players for not being professional and looking like idiots on the sideline that is fine. But, in the end the team won't win any more games because the coach gives a good speech when you have the kind of O-line the Deadskins have.
If you give up 5+ sacks a game - and I fully expect them to give up 15-20 sacks over the next 3 games - there is not much you can accomplish offensively.
You don't get it. With you it is always black or white. AGAIN, I'm not saying that discipline by itself makes ALL the difference. YES, we need help on the offensive line! HOWEVER, you can improve individuals play and the collective play if you instill a sense of being better. If you can bring about that attitude, team members will encourage other team members to perform better. They will not accept losing. They will not accept laughing on the sidelines.
I keep hearing week in and week out that the scheme is good and the playcalling is fine but that they can't execute. Good, disciplined teams execute properly. It's one thing if it is week 1 or 2 but we are in week 8.
Yeah, I know that that was high school and this is the NFL. I get it. Still, the same rules apply. AGAIN, I am not saying that just putting together guys off the scrap heap adn giving them Obama or Robbins will create a winner. You either don't fully read or don't fully understand what I write. WE ALL AGREE WE NEED HELP ON THE O LINE. However, we should be better than we are. If it is true that execution is the biggest issue, coaches need to correct that. Players should be in other players faces for not executing properly.
Sounds corny but in Best of Times when that RB comes in at half time to smoke a cigarette, Reno gets in his face and tells him he has to start playing better. I know it's silly but that is the concept.
It's like Hoosiers when the coach first takes over the team and he gathers them in for a meeting and that one guy is talking. The coach tries to get his attention but he continues to jibber jabber so he kicks him off the team. Same rules apply here.
Guys are lackadaisical. Guys are laughing when they aren't just losing but getting beaten by a divisional rival on national tv.
On my high school football team, the defense took great pride in how good we were. We would get in a pit and there would be one offensive guy and one defensive guy and you would basically go after one another and try and throw the other guy out of the pit. Everyone was around the circle and the offense was cheering for their guy and the defense was cheering for their guy. It got ugly but it built a camarderie among the team. I remember guys getting hurt during practice and if it wasn't serious, we made fun of them. We were winners. When an individual did something good, you let him know and when he messed up, you let him know. We enforced discipline on each other.
Again, I get it, we need talent but we also need a shift in attitude. Lavar, B-Mitch, Jaws and I'm sure guys on the team all feel the same way.
You don't get it.
Despite the O line issues, we just don't look sharp. We have a number of mental errors. Guys keep talking about execution issues. These are marks of a bad team.
Zorn keeps saying that guys are working hard and the offense is improving and he's proud and all this positive stuff. We need to enforce more discipline.
When Vernon Davis was called for a dumb personal foul last year, Singletary pulled him out of the game. Davis backtalked to Singletary and Singletary told him to get off the field and go to the locker room. Singletary said, "Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach them. Can't do it!" He has brought a shift in attitude to that team. They have largely been an embarrassment the last few years and don't have tons of talent on that team but I saw a little of the Viking - 9er game and the 9ers were playing inspired football. A DE encroached and he was VERY upset by his mistake. Our guys don't care.
Davis is in his third year and finally starting to show a little of his talent.
We have guys laughing on the sidelines in losses and keep saying the same thing after losses that they have no idea what's going on. They have no answers. We are not executing.
It's as B-Mitch says. We need guys to step on the oppositions throat and lift the other foot. It's like Tom Brady marching on the sidelines in losses telling his teammates, "We're not done yet!" There is something to motivation in professional sports.
AGAIN, don't get me wrong. We have organizational issues (Cerrato) and we have O line issues but we have attitude issues and it all needs to be overhauled.
Jeez dude, take it easy.
We just differ. I say that the Deadskins CANNOT execute because of their O-line. Their play calling, their QB, their head coach, etc. don't really matter when you have that O-line.
You agree that there is a problem with the O-line. But, you think that if they had some dude(s) yelling at them and firing them up (coaches and/or players) they could win some more games.
OK, let's get specific. Given their schedule, I would be surprised if this team wins 2 games.
at Atlanta, Denver, at Dallas, at Philly, and New Orleans over their next 5 look like 5 losses in a row.
They go to Oakland and will probably be underdogs, but let's say they win that game.
Then they close up with the Giants and Dallas at home before going to San Diego. Maybe they beat San Diego and surprise Dallas, but I'll say they just win one of those last 3.
Now - BE SPECIFIC - how many of those games do you expect them to win and if they had a coach who gave them attitude but still had to play with this O-line how many games would you expect them to win.
I want to know how much weight you put on attitude. For me, I'll say maybe with great attitude they win one more game.
Let me be clear. I want two numbers.
1. How many games you expect the Deadskins to win out of their last 9.
2. How many games you believe they would win if they had some dude(s) yelling and firing up the team.
I say there would be one extra win with the latter, but would like to see what you think.
Again, you don't get it.
I don't know how many more games we win. The larger point is that we have fundamental issues with our organization, our approach, our attitude, our culture, and our O line. All need fixing.
If you look at the good teams/organizations out there, they have discipline and leadership and demand excellence. The coaches demand it and the players demand it. I get the whole "it's high school" but again the same rules apply. Over the past 7-8 years, the Patriots put up a winner. That is nearly unheard of in today's NFL. They lose talent but they have a great organization and tremendous leadership. When you come to the Patriots, you don't change the Patriots. You adopt what the Patriots have built. Randy Moss has become a model player since he joined the Patriots. If he had come to the Redskins, you think he would care like he does in NE? He would be pulling the same stunts he did in Minnesota and LA and it would be about Randy Moss.
Same is true with the Colts. They expect to win. Same is true with the Saints. Brees jacks that offense up before the game and leads that team. I get it. They have talent but there is something more than talent. Even if we had a good O line, sure, I would expect to win more games but I wouldn't expect to be a championship team because we don't have killers. We don't have the killer instinct. The Saints are going to pound you and when they are beating you by 30, they are going to try and put more points on the board.
Look at the 9ers, they started out the season bad last year. They fired their coach and brought in Singletary who demands excellence. They finished 5-2 and started developed a change in attitude and culture. No longer were they going to accept failure. He was looking for winners and there was a shift. He has them respectable now. He is building something. He didn't do this with a whole sale change in personnel.
You don't need to respond anymore.
Once again, we will go back and forth with no agreement.
Some how I know you are going to respond because that is what you do but I'm telling you that it is neither necessary nor desired at this point.
Sorry friend you are the one who is just arguing for the sake of arguing.
If you are unwilling to give me a number for how many more wins the Deadskins would have if they had some guys yelling and screaming then you don't really have much of an argument. I say 1 game - you say 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, what?
If you are honest with yourself, I cannot imagine you would say more than 2 games. Then your whole attitude discussion amounts to very little.
You give crazy irrelevant examples from HS football and soccer teams and you give contradicting examples from the NFL.
The Patriots don't have yellers and screamers jacking them up every week - they win because of talent especially in the trenches. Brady can make reads and throw the ball downfield because he has time.
Manning has the best offensive line in football and has had that for the better part of a decade to keep him upright. Dungy and Caldwell were/are not big yellers and screamers. Frankly, Manning is not a guy who gets in people's faces. He mostly sits on the bench when he is not in the game and leads by example.
You like Brees jacking them up every week? The Saints were 8-8 last year and 7-9 the year before. Why didn't Brees jacking them up make them playoff teams the last two years? Talent issues and the lack of a defensive secondary killed them. They have 3 new starters in their secondary and first round pick Malcolm Jenkins comes in on nickel and dime packages. That is a HUGE upgrade for the team.
You can talk attitude all you want, but I don't think you even believe what you are writing. Whatever.
Robs...Seriously...I don't know why the point JKSD is making isn't clear. Who cares how many games the 'Skins might win going forward!? The team lacks basic discipline and there isn't a single player, coach, or member of the organization who steps up to squash the stupidity. If we're going to lose, at least lose with some dignity and class. Don't look like a bunch of joking, dancing, "I'm getting paid so who cares" clowns in the process.
Everyone who watches the team sees it. There's no accountability for sub-par performances and no punishment for "conduct detrimental to the team." You hear that phrase all the time with some other successful organizations. You never hear about any sort of discipline out of the 'Skins. Guys skip practice, can't learn plays, etc. and they still get on the field in the hopes that their skills make up for ineptitude. It's always, "We made some mistakes and we know we're better than that, so we'll take care of it next week." That's garbage that many teams don't tolerate.
Denver, NY Jets, Atlanta, Miami, SF...all these teams are subject to a higher standard than they were with previous coaches and they're turning things around. You can even throw Detroit in the mix. They suck, but they're a million times better than they were last year. That's not the case in D.C. We use the philosophy that players are adults and should not need to be disciplined. That's B.S.
I don't care if we lose the rest of our games. If we lose with discipline and no more stories about players giggling on the sidelines, or coaches making excuses for players who aren't doing their jobs to an acceptable level, I'll accept what's going on a little easier.
Deeps, the question is how important is attitude - especially relative to the O-line problem.
As near as I can tell, you don't believe that having a bunch of yelling dudes in the locker room would mean they would win any more games, but they would lose with more class.
Fine, I'll agree with you. But, losing is losing and I don't think fans will take solace in losing no matter how they lose.
At this point, discipline and lighting a fire under the players isn't going to make much of a difference. There has been a culture of false expectations within this organization for quite some time. Players are fat and overpaid and don't have the drive to succeed OR they are not as good as advertised. Many of the high priced free agents and draft picks we have are decent players but few are exceptional. Vinny said he thought he built a playoff team. He was clearly mistaken.
Had the culture been different when Zorn came in, or had he created a culture of accountability and discipline last year, I think things could have been different. Now, all we can do is hope this thing gets blown up and rebuilt with a better sense of how to become successful.
Culture won't change until Snyderatto gets out of day-to-day ops.
Zorn had little power to change things. Portis is the perfect example. Zorn called him out last year and was told to back down. When Zorn refused to bench Sellers at Portis' insistence, Portis ran to Vinny.
Once again, Deepie, thank you for understanding the point.
I am beginning to believe Robs wouldn't understand/would debate if I said that the sky was blue.
Post a Comment