RG3 will undergo total reconstructive surgery of his right knee early Wednesday morning to repair torn anterior cruciate and lateral collateral ligaments, but he is expected to be ready for the opener of the 2013 NFL regular season, according to team sources familiar with the determination made by orthopedic specialist Dr. James Andrews.
Griffin's recovery is projected at six to eight months, barring any setbacks, sources said. The rehabilitation plan will focus primarily on strengthening Griffin's quadriceps to help protect and help stabilize the knee, according to sources. The reconstruction of the LCL is considered a complication, but sources said Andrews informed the Redskins it should rehab well during the same six-to-eight month time frame as the ACL injury.
Under this projected time frame of surgery, recovery and rehab, Griffin should be able to participate at some level during training camp in August and be ready to open the season in September, according to the sources.
Griffin thanked his fans for their support in a tweet Wednesday morning. "Thank you for your prayers and support. I love God, my family, my team, the fans, & I love this game. See you guys next season," he wrote.
I suppose it is good and bad news. Obviously, it sucks that he needs the surgery but if the time table is accurate, it will be good to have him even for a portion of next season. I don't doubt the kid will work hard and do whatever he can to get back on the field and play the game he loves.
Deepie posted in another section that it's obvious now that Shanny made a mistake. I've said several times now that hindsight is 20/20. However, RG3 was cleared by doctors. He played the previous two games in a similar state. Shanny made the call based on conversations with doctors, trainers, RG3 determining how RG3 practiced in the week and he did what he did. Again, I'm sure he would love to have a do over. Unfortunately you can't. No one said anything about Shanny playing RG3 in the Eagles and Cowboys games. He has been/will take heat for this. I don't doubt that he has learned from this. I also don't doubt that he intended to put RG3's career in jeopardy for this one game. It was a mistake but it's understandable how he arrived to his decision. If he had kept him in there and called a bunch of designed runs, that would be inexcusable but that wasn't the case. The injury occurred on a botched snap and the field conditions sucked. It was a freak play. It's a shame but we are where we are and what's done is done and we can only move forward. Hopefully RG3 will recover fully without any set backs and he'll be back next season.
HTTR!!!
41 comments:
Hindsight is 20/20 but foresight is what we need to talk about here. Something has to change either by default or purposely. I've said it since the concussion after the falcons game, this type of offense isn't sustainable for the long run in the NFL. It's even worse for the skins because of what they have given up for this guy. You simply cannot afford a catastrophic injury like this every year. This is his second acl injury on the same knee in 4 years. He may make a recovery and be on the field on opening day but do you really think he'll be the same? I doubt it. He will have to become a drop back passer if he wants any chance of completing a 16 game season is his career. It's only year one and already a torn acl. He can't have injuries like this every year and be successful at helping this team win. Something has to drastically Change. That O line is not good enough to protect a drop back passer and i don't know if the Redskins have the resources to strengthen it. Also shanny is at fault for not pulling him at the right time and replacing him with cousins during the Seahawks game. How does he or anyone else on the Redskins including the players,qb coach, offensive coordinator not recognize that RG3 is no longer effective. Pete Carroll and the Seahawks clearly recognized it. They stopped biting on the fakes. Shanny did an injustice to RG3 and the rest of the team by keeping RG3 in there. RG3 wasn't going to pull himself either. We saw that from his arrogant comments after the game. If RG3 does not make it back next season and Cousins doesn't play well do you really think RG3 will be able to pick up right where he left off before the injury? I doubt it. Adrian Peterson is a rare case. And what if cousins leads the skins to the playoffs? There is sure to be a qb controversy. It's just a big mess for the Redskins that I and many others foresaw ever since it was realized how they were going to utilize RG3 in the offensive gameplan.
Sure, no team/star player can afford a catastrophic injury like this every year. As far as will he be the same, time will tell. When he came back from his previous ACL, he was better than ever. We all know AP came back better than ever. There is no question that RG3 will put in the work to come back. Again, time will tell how good he'll be when he comes back. Lets be clear too that the play when he was injured was not a designed run. It was a freak play where his foot got caught in the turf on a botched snap.
Not sure what has to "drastically" change. It's not like RG3 is running 10-15 designed runs a game. JSR, do you think Seattle's offense needs to drastically change? Lets be fair and judge the two offenses the same because Russell Wilson runs the read option and has designed runs called for him.
I think one of the biggest changes needs to be RG3 needs to better learn to head towards the sidelines and/or slide. He actually did this much more effectively as the year progressed. Even with that, injuries will happen. It is the nature of the game. I would have a major issue if the offense was designed for RG3 to run 10 times a game and if he tucked his head/shoulder down and tried to inflict/absorb hits. That would be troubling.
What is your basis of the O line not being good enough for a drop back passer? The O line has been decent all year in the run and the pass. As I've mentioned previously, all teams would want better O line play and would never want to give up a sack but it's not like Washington game up an inordinate amount of sacks. They were ranked better than most teams in that category so I'm not sure where you come up with that claim.
Yes, it was clear that Carroll recognized that RG3 wasn't the same. He wasn't the same the last few weeks. No surprise there. There have been a number of postings already about whether Shanny should have pulled out RG3. I don't doubt that Shanny wished he did. Still, it's understandable why he stuck with him. Many players on the team recognized that RG3 earned the right to play in that game. The doctors checked the knee and the integrity and stability was well enough to play. An Olympic trainer mentioned that a grade 1 LCL sprain is fine to play on as long as the player can withstand the pain. It's not like the ACL was hanging by a thread and Shanny put him out there to run QB draw plays every other play. I'm sure it was a tough decision for Shanny and he wished he could do it differently. If Aaron Rodgers suffers a similar knee sprain, I'm sure he would expect to return to play as quickly as RG3. Not sure who GB's backup is but you would probably expect Rodgers to play as well. Several football players have played in pain. Even your own Brett Favre played injured throughout his career and there was no way he was coming out of games. This included playing with a torn biceps tendon for several games with the Jets (something far worse than a grade 1 LCL sprain). I can't say for sure but it wouldn't surprise me if you were hoping he could play during that stretch. What I'm saying is lets truly compare apples to apples and not let your love for Favre and hatred for the Redskins cloud your objectiveness. Again, the doctors cleared him to play. He played that way for several weeks an no one said anything. RG3 practiced effectively. An Olympic trainer said the integrity and stability of the knee is sound and as long as the player can tolerate the pain, he can play. All that said, it's understandable why Shanny went with RG3 and trusted him to play. He had earned that right. Again, he didn't put him out there to run designed runs left and right. It's just not the case. Again, I'm sure he wished he made a different decision but he went with his gut just has he did the previous weeks when no one said a thing. A win against Seattle and the topics of discussion this week are totally different. I understand his decision. I understand the backlash but it's fans/media doing what they do best. I'm just trying to understand all sides and hopefully provide some objectiveness.
According to Dr. Andrews' time table RG3 will be able to return by opening day barring a set back. We'll see if that happens. However, we should also prepare for Cousins to start the season and possibly play the entire season. Should he be unbelievable I don't doubt there will be a QB controversy but it will be a good problem to have given that RG3 is a very good QB and it would be a real luxury to have two great QBs on the team. It would give us some options to trade Cousins and get some decent return. Frankly, I think Cousins is a quality QB but he is no RG3. Time will tell how that plays out and we'll discuss/deal with that at that time.
Shanny should be fired for gross negligence in his mismanagement of RGIII. I am not joking.
Ridiculous. I suppose James Andrews should be discredited as well.
All the players would revolt if he was fired.
Right or wrong, the culture of NFL players is to play unless they can't stand. Perhaps this will be a play that changes some of that mentality.
I suppose the Jets staff should have been fired for Favre's torn bicep tendon injury.
I suppose the Marshall staff should have been fired for Leftwich playing with a broken leg.
I suppose Baylor's staff should have been fired for RG3 tearing an ACL and allowing him to finish the half.
I suppose GB's staff should be fired for Rodgers suffering two concussions in a season and probably a third when he was crushed in a helmet to helmet blow from Peppers in which he didn't look the same but was allowed to play.
The list goes on and on.
The culture is what it is. I'm not saying it is right. Can't say it enough where I am sure Shanny is kicking himself for keeping him in but he trusted all those that advised him and his decision is understandable. Again, a win and no one is talking about this.
Gross mismanagement - not run of the mill decision making. Shanny mortgaged the franchise to get RG3. Then he failed to protect the franchise.
Add to that his obfuscation and his failure to take full responsibility and it adds up to a complete failure to live up to his $7M/year salary.
He may not have been injured on a design run play but he is an athletic running qb forced to run much more than normal. 850 rushing yds for a qb is way too much. The probability of being injured increased exponentially so it doesn’t matter that it was a designed run or not. A run is a run and he does too much of it. The fact is that his speed is an asset and he got injured because it was used recklessly. To be fair, this would apply to any significant running qb to play the game. Cunningham, Vick, now RG3. Its just not sustainable to play that way and my point is that the skins gave up too much for them to be using it recklessly. Sure Seattle runs a similar type of offense. But they are doing something different. In contrast is that Wilson only rushed for 489 yrds versus 850 for RG3. RG3 would have rushed for more if he didn’t get injured in week 13. So this comparison isn’t apples to apples. Wilson threw for 26 tds and rushed for 4 tds leading me to believe that he used his running as only an option as opposed to primarily, or even a 50/50 choice. The result was that he wasn’t injured at all this season. The O-line weakness has ben masked by the read option and the threat of it. Its not proven whether they can hold up for a drop back passer like cousins.
Carroll recognized that RG3 wasn’t the same after he tweaked it during the game. After the tweak, it was clearly worse than it was during the Philly or Dallas game. So yes this was a surprise that Carroll recognized it and changed the game plan and Shanny didn’t. And if he did, and still did nothing about it, then that’s another issue where I think Shanny should never coach again.
If Aaron Rodgers was not effective at doing what he does best and helping to team to win and it was clear, and I knew I have a solid back up in Graham Harrell, then id want Harrell in. In the case of Favre, Boller was in no way even close to the a 60% Favre. Id want Favre in. Cousins apparently is a decent back up. Why not put him in since RG3 was not effective. Even more important is the risk of losing a huge investment by being reckless with him. Simply to protect the investment is a reason to pull him.
I am being as objective as possible. Comparing apples to apples is only possible when the situation and variable are identical. In this case compared to Favre and Boller, to Rodgers and Harrell the variables and situation aren’t the same. Comparing Wilson to RG3 isnt he same.
Its clearly a mistake to have left RG3 in the as long as they did. Its evident that something has to change or else this is going to be a yearly thing for about the next two seasons.
RG3 was medically cleared.
How did he not take full responsibility? I said it was his call to put him in there. He said he second guessed it. I'm sure if he could do it over again, he would do things differently. What do you want him to do? Would you like him to crawl on his hands and knees and beg the city of Washington and RG3 fans nationwide for forgiveness?
Coaches allow players to play all the time.
Tarvaris Jackson played ineffectively last year with a 50% torn pectoral muscle.
Dez Bryant played this year with ligament damage in his hand that could have resulted in permanent damage.
MJ broke his foot and 64 games later felt it was his right to return and play.
The list goes on and on. Again, it was a terrible thing that happened. However, he was medically cleared by Dr. James Andrews and highly respected Olympic trainer said that that type of injury is fine to play on if he can tolerate the pain. The play in which he was injured was not a designed QB run but a freak play. As a Skins fan, I'm not happy that he is hurt but the decision is understandable. Those decisions happen all the time.
I know you love to complain about the Skins and find things to gripe about. I know this season it is hard to talk about the results on the field given the Skins success. I also know that Shanny is taking heat and that is understandable. I just find it interesting because if the Skins win the game, Shanny would probably get credit for going with RG3 and RG3 would be lauded for his toughness.
This is sports dude. You should understand this. I'm sure you played hurt. I know you told the story about your h.s. football teammate who's shoulders were both screwed up but the coaches tied belts from his arms to his shoulder pads so he wouldn't lift his arms high enough for them to pop out and told him to get out there. I know I played with severe ankle sprains and hyper extensions because I expected/wanted to. These things happen constantly. That's high school.
RG3's situation was in the pros where he got clearance from probably the most famous and reknowned doctor in the world. Again, a tragedy but should be a very understandable decision particularly from a guy that played sports.
JSR, of course you will never get a true 1 to 1 comparison. However, be fair in your assessments.
Looking at yards is not a good indicator or running QBs. A better indicator is number of rushes. Wilson had nearly 100 carries and was running by far more in the second half of the season than the first half (first 8 games he was averaging 4.5 rushes/game in the second half he was averaging 7.2 rushes/game). Cam Newton rushed more times than RG3. In fact, Carroll liked what Washington was doing and instituted more read option into his offense that better explains the higher number of rushes in the latter part of the season. You say Seattle is doing something different. What are they doing different? Please explain. Again, I get that you will never get an absolute 1 to 1 comparison but there is enough similarity that I would like to know how/why we can't compare RG3 to Wilson.
The O line was solid this season. In the one game Cousins played, the line only allowed two sacks. That was against Cleveland. Cleveland had the 11th highest number of sacks in the league so they can apply decent pressure. Again, all teams would like improved O line play and no team wants their QB hit. It happens. Also, recognize late in games when offenses are forced to pass, D linemen are licking their chops because they can pin their ears back and just rush the QB. It's different at those times. Bottom line, the O line was decent all year. You have to give me better evidence that substantiates a weak O line other than just saying it.
Carroll has said that he didn't change the game plan. I'm not sure I follow that part of your discussion.
We're not talking about capable backups. We are talking about leaving in QBs to get injured. You are saying yourself that you are okay with Favre playing several games with a torn biceps tendon where he can risk further damage. Even more egregious was the fact that the Jets hid the injury from the NFL and was ultimately fined for not disclosing it.
I am sure Rodgers would expect to play in big games if he suffered a knee sprain but was medically cleared. I am sure the team would feel he has earned that right. Rodgers is by far a better option than Harrell.
RG3 was medically cleared by arguably the most well recognized orthopedist in the world. A highly respected Olympic trainer said that a grade 1 LCL strain in the knee is structurally stable and has integrity to play as long as the player can withstand the pain.
Again, hindsight is 20/20 and I am sure Shanny wishes he had made a different decision now. He put too much trust in RG3 and Dr. Andrews and what he saw in practice but it is understandable how he arrived to his decision.
Putting out a one-legged RG3 may be OK with you. It was a gross failure of leadership in my opinion.
Take what the Nats did with Strassberg this year. If they had asked him if he felt well enough to play I am sure he would have pitched until his arm fell off.
Shanny failed his QB and he failed the Redskins. And no - he has not taken full responsibility. By saying he asked RG3 and did not get Dr. Andrews to walk over during the game to tell him to take RG3 out he is merely deflecting blame. That was his call to make. Sometimes the right call is unpopular - but that is why coaches get paid the big bucks.
He has quite probably destroyed the unique talent of RG3. I just hope the Redskins don't rush RG3 back. They should be thinking about getting him back in 2014. Not rushing him back for 2013.
That "gross failure" happens all the time. I have given you a number of examples - both professional as well as personal. You should undertand that this happens all the time. Not sure why this case should be treated than all the other cases.
Again, if RG3 wins the game, everyone is talking about how courageous he is and the continued great job Shanny is doing to this season. These are the things that I am finding puzzling in this discussion.
As far as Strasburg, you are right. If he had it in his hands, he would play. He said that. Players on the team were upset (and I'm sure still bitter) about him not playing. However, management said what they said at the beginning of the year and they held true to it.
Shanny said that it was his decision. He mentioned how he arrived at the decision but he said that it was his call. He also said that he second guessed it and he understood the backlash he is taking. Not sure what you expect from the guy.
I'm not doctor and neither are you so I will leave the time table of recovery to Dr. Andrews and the other experts. AP came back in about 8-9 months. I'm sure each case presents some uniqueness but I will trust the doctors to put RG3 on the right time table.
I cannot think of a similar gross failure. I watched most of the NFL Replay of the game last night. RGIII was playing on one leg and he was very inefficient. This wasn't a concussion or something that you could hide - this was his leg.
You have a problem in thinking I am only saying this because I don't like the Redskins. I don't the like the Redskins, but that doesn't have any impact on the gross error that Shanny made. I told you I thought Shanny was mismanaging RGIII before the game.
Your problem is that you defend the Deadskins no matter what - and it is hard to see how your views are objective. I am sure you will come around at some point and recognize that playing RGIII was a completely idiotic move.
As for recovery we'll see. I have no doubt RGIII will be back, but I would be shocked if he recovered his world class speed.
Hopefully they will do the right thing going forward. Most certainly they made a mistake with RGIII - don't make it worse by rushing him or asking him if he thinks he can play
I have given you a number of example so "gross mismanagement." Again:
1. RG3 tearing his ACL in college and coming back in to finish the half.
2. Leftwich breaking his leg and continuing to play. Being carried by teammates down the field.
3. Favre playing 5-6 games with a torn biceps tendon. The Jets actually hid the injury from the NFL.
4. Tarvaris Jackson playing with a 50% torn pectoral muscle.
5. Dez Bryant playing with ligament damage in his hand that could have become permanent.
6. MJ saying that he has the right to tell the Bulls when he wanted to come back from a broken foot.
7. All the cases of guys returning from concussions.
8. The incidents you and I both saw in our high school playing careers.
The list can go on and on. You know that.
RG3 was medically cleared. He practiced. It's been explained that the integrity of the knee and structure is sound. It's painful but sound.
I will say this, I would have been fine with pulling him or leaving him in. He played that way for the last month. Again, if we won, no one would be saying anything about this. In fact, they would be talking about how tough and heroic RG3 is and Shanny did a good job of continuing to guide the team to victory. That's what I find so puzzling. It's always easier to criticize after the fact.
I know that during the game I wasn't saying to pull him out. I felt that way because he was playing the same way over the last month and I believe RG3 is the better option over Cousins. In hindsight, I would definitely have pulled him out and gone with Cousins. I wished we did that.
Just as I find "fans" and media ridiculous when they go all ga ga over a win and all doom and gloom with a loss, I find it puzzling those same "fans" and media would call a guy tough and heroic with the win but a big mistake with the loss and unfortunately the injury especially when that guy was playing essentially the same way for the last few games. I suppose I could accept it more if people were going nuts a few weeks ago.
8-12 months puts him at the beginning of September as the best case scenario. I dont see how he will be ready to play without much preparation. he wont be at full speed or be able to juke and cut like he used to. And would they change the offense? Or do proceed to a likely career ending injury with the same offense.
I don't hate RG3 or the Redskins. I just don't want Snyder hoisting the Lombardi trophy. Looking at it objectively, In my opinion the Redskins are a severely mismanaged organization from the past 14 years to what happened this past sunday. Many agree. Believe me if this were Madden football where you could turn off injuries, the RG3 trade and their use of him would be great and we'd be watching them slice their way thru the competition to the superbowl. My main gripe is their mismanagement. they paid a lot for RG3 and they are being reckless with him. Just a point. I mean you can turn on any talk radio show and they are bashing the skins for the same reasons. Its Not just us. I believe they had a great season. One great season. But now what? RG3 is not going to be the same. Does that plunge the skins back into the dark days of losing and uncertainty again? They don't have the resources for any alternatives. Just poor management and that's not how championship teams operate. That's why Dan Snyder hoisting the Lombardi trophy signifies the end of days for me.
None of those examples are similar. The only one that is close is Leftwich - but I don't know the details of the game.
RGIII was clearly hurt before the game and he had not been effective in the prior games. There is no question that he got hurt in the first quarter right before he threw the second TD.
He is clearly the franchise and the Deadskins mortgaged everything for him.
On top of the above, the field was a complete and utter mess (THANK YOU DAN SNYDER FOR YOUR CHEAP ASS B.S. ON THAT FRONT).
He should have been taken out - clearly. He wasn't. Whose responsibility was that? Shanny!
JSR, you haven't answered my questions on the differences b/t RG3 and the Skins offense and Wilson and the Seattle offense. Nor have you answered questions on the O line.
As far as talk radio, that is what they do. When the Strasburg thing was going down, the same talk radio guys were all up in arms about the Strasburg decision and debating that. That is what they do. Chad Dukes from the Lavar and Dukes show asked a well respected reporter during that time why was everyone making such a big deal about it and the guy said because there isn't much else to talk about and this is a hot topic and we like to create controversy. This should come as no surprise to you.
You said yourself that you were fine with the Jets playing a significantly injured Brett Favre where he was jeopardizing his arm on every throw. Not sure why you are having a difficult time understanding the decision to play a medically cleared RG3 who had been playing the same way for a month and who, if they won, would have been lauded for his heroics. I'm not asking you whether it would have been better to go with Cousins only if it is reasonable to understand letting the guy play.
As far as the mismanagement over the years, no question for most of Snyder's time as owner, he has mismanaged. However, it is clear it is different for all the reasons I mentioned from back in training camp. The team is no longer blowing its wad on 1 or 2 high priced, over the hill diva FAs. The team actually tried to acquire more picks and decided to build through the draft. They have gotten younger, deeper and Allen has been much more fiscally conservative on the cap. Look at the young contributors recently that have all played a role for this team:
1. RG3
2. Alfred Morris
3. Josh LeRibeus
4. Richard Crawford
5. Kirk Cousins
6. Pierre Garcon
7. Ryan Kerrigan
8. Jarvis Jenkins
9. Leonard Hankerson
10. Roy Helu
11. Evan Royster
12. Barry Cofield
13. Stephen Bowen
14. Niles Paul
All these draft picks/FAs have contributed in various capacities. If you have truly followed the Skins this is not the same operating procedures that they followed under Snyderatto. Even players have given credit to Shanallen for building a team of not only talented but good character guys that we haven't seen in a long time.
As far as the time table, Dr. Andrews said 6-8 months which would have him ready by opening day. We'll see if that holds true. It admittedly seems ambitious to me but then again Dr. Andrews is the expert on these types of injuries so we'll see how he progresses over the coming months. In any case, it's good to have Cousins as he will need to prepare to start the season as the #1.
Shanny accepted responsibility. What do you want?
How are the Favre, Jackson, Bryant situations different? In fact, the Favre seems most egregious because the Jets hid the injury from the NFL.
You know the mentality of players. You know the culture of the NFL. At least I think you do. This stuff happens all the time. Of course, RG3 was more susceptible to injury. He said that himself in his post game comments. Many athletes play hurt and they are all more susceptible to injury because of playing hurt. It is the risk they run. It is the risk they accept. The thing is doctors cleared him. No one could have anticipated that injury. It happened on a freak play. Everyone would have been fine with the decision if they won. They were fine with it for a few weeks. No one was clamoring when he limped in the Eagles game or the Cowboys game. That is what I find frustrating.
Yes, the turf sucked. Not sure what could have been done during the year. You put sod down, a lot of times it doesn't have time to bind with the dirt. Not sure if Snyder is a grass expert and I don't think you are but if you have a solution, I'd love to hear it. Snyder did fire the head groundskeeper the day after the game. I am assuming the field will be much better next season.
Those examples are not comparable because RG3 is the 22 year old franchise player that the Deadskins mortgaged their future for.
I'm sorry, but Shanny has not taken responsibility. He puts blame on RG3 and Dr. Andrews. It was totally his call and he blew it.
As for all of those other players - without RG3 the Deadskins are a 5-11 team. We'll see next year how good the team is.
One other thing, RG3 averaged 8 carries a game. Russell Wilson averaged 5.9 carries a game. That is the difference between them. The 26 extra carries that RG3 had (in only 15 games) is significant.
The offensive line was widely regarded as a concern coming into the season. It's weakness was masked by the scheme. Head to head they would not be able to block anyone. We have even talked about this before how most teams in the nfl don't have great offensive lines but still manage. I'll say that they atleast have done nothing to show that they are any good or sufficient.
Russell Wilson didn't run as much. His stats show it. Hes more of a threat passing. 26 tds would not prove otherwise. He rushed for way less yards, had less attempts and played more games. The Seahawks are a conventional offense with a read option wrinkle in the offense which may or may not have been taken from Washington. They don't need to use the read option so much as they don't need to mask other deficiencies as the Redskins do. Which is why the Redskins relied on it more. It was the identity of their offense all year. The Seahawks didn't see the need to play Wilson recklessly. Also the Seahawks didn't throw all their eggs into one basket so running the read option exclusively is less risky.
The Favre thing is very different. Favre wasn't the future of the franchise as RG3 is or Strasburg is. Favre getting severely injured wasn't going to set the jets back by years. Also the jets didn't give up 3 first rnd picks and more for him. The risk was much lower. He was also clearly better option at that point than Kyle Boller with his experience and leadership. He was able to complete passes as well. As I don't recall any games where he went 0 for. So he was physically able to play. Unlike Griffin at the end of the game which was clear. The fact that jets didn't disclose the injury and no one figured it out til the end of the season proves that he could still play.
Sheesh Robs! It's hard to find an EXACT comparison but there are enough incidents to understand that what happened is very common in sports. A couple other examples:
1. Willis Reed a pulled/torn thigh muscle ends up playing Game 7 of the championship. He risked his career with that game.
2. Steve Yzerman played the 2002 Stanley Cup with a blown out knee. The knee was so bad that he ended up having reconstruction of the knee and missed much of the next year. He jeopardized his career.
3. Kerri Strugg continued in the Olympics with torn ligaments in her left ankle.
The list goes on and on. Again, there may not be a true one for one comparison but I'm having a hard time of not understanding how a medically cleared player who had played the last month under the same conditions and no one saying anything and you know if they won people would be lauding his heroics and courage should all of a sudden not played in this game. The hypocrisy of fans/media is what I find frustrating.
Leftwich left the game he was injured in to go to a hospital and get x rays which showed a broken tibia but he came back to the game and played and was carried in between plays by teammates to get him to the line of scrimmage. This happens. He was praised for his courage. This is what happens in sports.
Robs, the Seahawks liked what Washington was doing with RG3 and the read option and instituted it more into their offense that is why Wilson's rushes per game increased by so much in the second half of the season. He was rushing about the same amount in that period.
Look, I do think RG3 should be limited in the number of his runs. I also think that RG3 needs to do a better job of protecting himself. Often times, he is the one that puts himself in harms way. Wilson does a better job protecting himself. Just look at the runs.
JSR, the line was a concern at the beginning of the year. You mentioned this often starting from opening day. I was defending them saying from day 1 that they aren't that bad. I can look back and pull out quotes if you would like. The stats don't support your claims. Many analysts have commended the job the Redskin O line has done this year. I can pull quotes out of that as well. T. Williams is a Pro Bowler and W. Montgomery should have been. There isn't much substantiation to your claim.
Russell Wilson ran more over his last 8 games than RG3 did (58 carries vs. 56 carries). Again, his increased number of carries was the result of Seattle instituting the read option and more designed QB runs. The stats show he ran just as much so I'm not sure what stats you are looking at. Again, you will never get an ABSOLUTE 1 to 1 comparison but the comparison seems close enough that if you are going to say that the offense is not sustainable in Washington the same would hold true in Seattle.
Also, it's not like Washington strictly runs the read option.
Fine Favre is different but you still said that you were okay with putting in an injured Favre and risking his future in order for him to play. I've pointed out a number of other examples. There may not be a true and exact comparison but there are enough examples to understand that this happens in sports. Many athletes play with pain. They expect it from themselves and from each other. It is the culture.
I remember playing high school football and a guy broke a couple of fingers and walked off and our teammates were yelling at him for being a wimp (used more colorful language). It is the culture.
For the umpteenth time, RG3 was medically cleared by the arguably the most renowned orthopedist in the world. A highly respected Olympic trainer said it would be fine for him to play with the injury he sustained. He practiced. He played the same way for the last month. If we won, he would have been commended for his toughness. However, things ended the way they ended and the very same people that would have commended him and Shanny if the Skins had won are complaining. It is typical fans. A win and all is right in the world. A loss and it's all doom and gloom. Again, it is that mentality that is frustrating. It is the double standards and the hypocrisy which I find puzzling.
Terrible examples.
Willis Reed played the first 5 minutes before sitting out. His contribution was emotional, but it certainly wasn't much of a risk to his career.
Yzerman in 2002? He was 37 years old!
Strug? She didn't even need to vault - the U.S. had already secured the team gold medal. It was a horrible mistake to have her vault. NBC was harshly criticized because they showed the event on tape delay and made it seem like she needed to nail the vault, when in fact she didn't even have to go. Her career was also over at that point anyway - she was retiring from gymnastics after that vault anyway.
There is no comparison between RG3's knee and a fractured tibia, and there is no comparison between Leftwich and RG3 in terms of their talent.
If it is true that Russell Wilson and RG3 were running the same amount over their last 8 games, then there is an even bigger problem than I thought. RG3 was hurt throughout much of the second half of the season (concussion and knee).
Shanny did not protect his golden goose and risked RG3's career and the future of the Redskins for NOTHING! He is an idiot.
Geez dude. They are examples. There is no ABSOLUTE 1 for 1 example. You can refute each example I have given and all the other examples that exist because they are not an absolute 1 for 1. The point is that there are examples are all over the place. I have given plenty. I'm sure there are plenty more.
Even Peyton Manning. Many thought he should retire and was risking his life by playing. He certainly started out the season shaky and if he had been paralyzed many people would have come under fire.
Not sure how many examples I can give you.
Charley Casserly said on Comcast that it's a tough call. Basically reiterated what I have been saying. He said he should have probably come out but if the same thing had happened to Rodgers, Brady, or Manning, they won't be pulled. It's sports dude. It's what has happened for years.
As far as the running, RG3 ran 2 times against Philly and 6 times against the Cowboys those are the two games he played after the injury. Concussion took place three months ago. Guys come back from concussions in a week so don't pull that out.
Robs I expect you to understand better the nature of sports as you have played them and understand what takes place and have watched them for a long time so it's puzzling to me that you can't understand that it is a reasonable decision for him to play for all the reasons I have mentioned multiple times in this discussion. If you are just trying to be argumentative than that's fine.
If RG3 had more damage than was let on, than I would understand him being pulled out. If doctors didn't clear him. If he couldn't practice I could understand. It's easy to look back and say what should have been done. Again, no one raised a fuss during the Eagles or Cowboys game. I am not arguing whether Cousins should have been put in. The argument is if it is reasonable for him to play. I felt like it was reasonable. For all the reasons I mentioned. Again, if they won, I think you would agree that RG3 would be praised for his toughness and Shanny would be praised for his continued strong guidance of the team. Am I wrong?
I just read the front page article in today's Washington Post by Sally Jenkins. It says exactly what I believe.
READ IT
I already read it earlier today. It's her opinion. She is a respected columnist. I understand where she and other are coming from. She is not an athlete. Many athletes understand the culture. Apparently you have forgotten.
I understand the reasons for putting in Cousins. However, I understand Shanny's reasons for keeping RG3 in.
Where was Jenkins three weeks ago after the Philly game? She didn't seem to have a problem with that. If RG3 won the game for the Skins, she doesn't write that article and probably writes something about his toughness.
You seem to have forgotten and don't understand anymore.
He shouldn't have been on the field in earlier games if he was limping this badly and playing so poorly. That said, honestly, who cares about prior games? RG3 got hurt in this game in the first quarter and it was obvious he was in trouble.
You have given a lot of irrelevant examples. If you can give me one example of a superstar player - a true franchise player - who had an injury (preferably a knee injury) who was allowed to play through that injury an risk their career while they were a budding young superstar let me know.
When you have a true superstar and you have mortgaged the future for that one player, you protect that player as best you can.
That is why guys like Strasburg gets shut down. Think about what the Penguins did with Sidney Crosby. The MJ example you gave supports my argument. The Bulls shut down MJ for 64 games - and I am sure they were super cautious with him - rather than rush him back. Derrick Rose may end up missing this entire season rather than being pushed to play.
Shanny paid dearly for RG3 and then used him up like he was a scrub player. The way he crapped on RG3's career is almost criminally stupid. Shanny probably coached himself out of his job anyway.
Next year, when Shanny has to play without RG3 we'll see how good he is at coaching and making personnel decisions. My guess is that the Deadskins will go back to sucking and Shanny will either step aside or be fired. We'll see.
Good gravy Robs. What's wrong with you? You put JKSD up to a wild goose chase to find examples of similar situations, which he's provided about 20 of, and you refute each one like a cantankerous old man who believes everyone else is wrong. Give it a rest.
You're just like every other hater out there who gets on their soap box when the opportunity arises. Where was this outright hatred for Shanny during the 7-game win streak? How are you claiming that RG3 played poorly against the Eagles and Cowgirls? He had a 102.4 QB rating against the Eagles and when the Cowgirls dropped everyone back to take away the pass, he and Morris racked up over 260 yards rushing and 4 TDs. I would argue that his play significantly helped the Skins win both games to take the NFC East.
Sure the injury was terrible and it could have been avoided. Shanny told Griffin when he walked off the field, "I should have taken you out." Griffin responded with, "It's not on you, coach." Shanny knows he F'd up, but I think Lavar Arrington summed up the situtation best on the air yesterday. He describes the injury situation as one where the doctors run a laundry list of tests. If the player has no obvious injury and can tolerate the pain, they are medically cleared to play. Griffin left the doctors and was moving as expected on the sidelines when Shanny agreed to let him in. IF anything during this entire process clearly indicated that Griffin was at risk of injury, he would not have been able to go back in. Yes, it's the coach who has the final say. That is why Shanny admitted to screwing up. The fact of the matter is, no coach would have done anything differently.
Robs...how about this. Find me one example of a coach who refused to let their injured player who was medically cleared to play to go back into the game. Good luck with that one, Pears fan.
This is Robs being Robs. He has an answer for everything. How about this. If RG3 had led the Skins to a win, do you think everyone (fans/media) would be saying what they are saying? Do you think it is more likely they would be praising his toughness?
A simple yes or no will suffice.
Sure. But that didn't happen.
If they had won but RG3's career was over would it be worth it?
If they had won should RG3 be preparing to play?
If they lost but RG3 had "only" torn his ACL would that be OK?
Don't answer. We can create as many hypotheticals as we can think of but none of them matter. We have what we saw on Sunday.
Only the Deadskins would turn their 22-year old golden goose into a useless scrap heap the way they did. And only a true Deadskins apologist would defend their foolishness.
Useless scrap heap? The kid is just 22 years old and had a routine surgery a few days after the team's season ended as a result of losing to a better team. This surgery is so routine these days that, unless an infection occurs (Tom Brady), extended rehab is highly unusual. AP is a perfect example. Carlos Rogers came back to the Skins just as quickly just a few seasons ago. Yes, it's unfortunate but it happened. Regardless, it's far from the end of the world.
Save your doom and gloom opinions to yourself until we see for certain that RG3 comes back and can't run any faster than Tom Brady. I can guarantee that even if that were the case, he could transform himself into a very good pocket passer and that the Shannys would do everything in their power to help him succeed.
To add to my previous post...I would contend that the injury actually happened in the 1st quarter when Griffin lost his balance scrambling just before the 2nd TD pass.
If this is true, the only way to avoid the injury would have been to keep RG3 out of the game. NO ONE, not Dr. Andrews, not the media, not you, would have suggested that he not play at all prior to the injury. Everyone is saying he should have come out around the start of the 2nd half, which, I believe, was already well after the injury occurred.
My point is, the injury was a freak accident that no one could have predicted, given the knee brace and the medical clearance to play. Blaming Shanny and the Skins for the injury is ludicrous and a highly judgmental and biased opinion of those who simply want to stir the pot for no good reason at all.
HTTR! Good day!
Deeps - those weren't similar. I just want one example of a young superstar player who was allowed to risk his career.
As for the example you want it is easy to find superstars who were medically cleared but held out. Strasburg comes immediately to mind. Ricky Rubio was practicing and was cleared to play but the Timberwolves recently kept him from making a trip out west. Look at how the Bulls are handling Rose and how the Wiz are dealing with Wall. They are being extra cautious.
LCL tear is not common. Having a second ACL tear and recovering is also not common.
Deeps - no one is saying he should not have started. He clearly got hurt during the game and should have been removed to protect him.
We'll see if he comes back next year. LCL is very tricky. Read up on it.
Adrian Peterson had a grade-2 LCL sprain - not a grade-1 like RG3 - in week 10 of the 2007 season - HIS ROOKIE YEAR.
http://espn.go.com/fantasy/blog/_/name/bell_stephania/id/3109636/breaking-adrian-peterson-injury
He sat out two weeks and played the remainder of the season as the Vikings were in playoff contention until the final week.
I'm sure there are a million examples of similar situations, but we don't hear about them because the player luckily made it through without a set back. RG3's injury and the way he was handled is no anomoly. The bottom line is this - He was medically cleared to play!
The Strasburg injury is absolutely nothing like the RG3 situation. Tommy John surgery requires 12-18 months of rehab and years of medical research and countless doctor's recommendations drove Rizzo to conclude that Strasburg needed to be on an inning and pitch count. In other words, doctors did not medically clear him to continue. He didn't just sprain his elbow. He ripped it to shreads because the Nats didn't limit his pitches in his rookie year! To say the Nats treated Strasburg with kid gloves after major reconstruction of his elbow and attempting to contrast that mis-management of a rookie phenom to what the Skins did with RG3 is ridiculous.
Robs, that's my point. People are upset that he played but you said yourself that no one would have a problem if they had won. That's why no one was clamoring during/after the Eagles or Cowboys games. As Deepie said, you are doing what you do best and stir the pot.
I also love how you say if Cousins has to play, the Skins will basically suck. There is no winning with you. When the Skins drafted RG3, you said he wasn't worth it. When he started seeing success, you thought it wouldn't be sustained. It's been like that for years with you.
I don't think Cousins is as good as RG3. I never have said that but the Skins are certainly changing the culture with the team and I believe even you can recognize that.
The big problem is that you just want to be argumentative. You really can't reason with a guy like that.
As far as your examples, they aren't that good either. Crosby wasn't medically cleared to play until October. He returned to the ice in November. The Penguins weren't overly cautious with him. He was NOT medically cleared for on ice contact.
As far as Rubio, he returned from an ACL and LCL reconstruction in 9 months. He is suffering from a bad back that is what is holding him back now. True they are limiting his minutes but his bad back is also holding him back.
Even Strasburg is not a good example. He was put on a limited number of innings prior to the start of the season. It was something that was defined going into the season. Despite controversy, they held true to their word. Good for them. There is no medical proof that he needed to be held out. Many thought he should play. Greg Maddux said that pitching actually helps the arm recover. Still, the Nats made their decision prior to the start of the season and stuck to it. It's a different situation than Griffin.
RG3 was medically cleared. An Olympic trainer said that that injury is fine to play on. I can't understand why it is so far fetched for you to believe that he could play. I'm sure many coaches would have made the same decision Shanny did.
A couple of years back, Aaron Rodgers suffered two concussions in a season (one to Washington a second to Detroit). In the playoffs, he took a jarring hit to the helmet from Julius Peppers. Despite Rodgers' claims, there are accounts of him appearing woozy afterwards but he didn't come out. His brain was at risk but he didn't come out. I'm sure Rodgers told McCarthy I'm good. The Packers won. However, if Rodgers ended up with some type of severe brain injury after the game, I'm sure McCarthy would have come under fire.
Look, I have given you a number of examples. I know you can refute each one because there is no ABSOLUTE 1 to 1 but for you to think that the decision was isolated or just impossible to believe especially when the same decision was made for the last few weeks, it's ridiculous.
As far as RG3 being turned into a useless scrap heap, that's just as ridiculous. We'll see how he returns. However, as Deepie said, RG3 doesn't just rely on his legs. All accounts of him are that he is an accurate passer and if he had to become that (he will have to become that eventually), I don't doubt he can be that guy.
All this boils down to is you being you and how you believe the Skins can do no right and the Pears are the ultimate organization. Wake up dude.
You're last point is idiotic. It is sad to see how delusional you have become. I cannot believe how little you value RG3, and how little you understand how much he means to the franchise. I'm done.
What? I give you the perfect example of what you have been asking for and now you're done?
Oh well.
It's ridiculous how you can't see that this stuff happens all the time. Somehow Shanny and the Skins should be held to a different standard by you.
A couple of years back Roethlisberger took a shot directly to his knee that looked pretty bad. He stayed down on the field for several minutes before limping off. He returned three plays later and played the rest of the game hurt. It was reported after the game how tough Ben was for going back in.
In fact, when Steelers head coach Mike Tomlin was asked after the game if he had any doubts about putting Roethlisberger back in the game, he gave a simple, stern one-word answer: "No."
I would have been fine with RG3 being pulled but I can understand him remaining in the game. I can imagine Rodgers, Roethlisberger, Brady, Manning all doing the same. It's not inconceivable for me. Am I happy that he got hurt? Of course not. It was a freak play on a botched snap. It's unfortunate.
Again, RG3 was medically cleared. An Olympic trainer said that it is fine to play with a grade 1 LCL sprain. There have been plenty of coaches that have let their players play with injuries. No one complained about the decision for RG3 to play in the Eagles or Cowboys game. People would be fine with RG3 playing if we had won. Yet, somehow Shanny should be held to a different standard. It doesn't make sense.
I'm done as well.
Not quite done.
This past season, Ben was beaten up pretty badly but he came back to try and save the season for the Steelers.
Roethlisberger was coming off injuries to both his shoulder and his ribs, but the likelihood that the veteran quarterback is fully healthy is very low. With a porous offensive line, Pittsburgh is likely risking further injury to its star signal-caller.
That said, it was only a matter of time before Big Ben talked his way back onto the field. He is well aware that the Steelers need him to make a push for the postseason.
Tomlin said he saw enough in practice to let him go but admitted he didn't know what would happen once he got hit in the game. I'm sure Ben told Tomlin I'm playing and Tomlin felt that Ben earned the right to make the call.
This stuff happens. Again, I could undertand pulling RG3 but I can also understand staying with him.
BTW - the rib injury Ben suffered was potentially fatal as the rib was pressing against his aorta and could pierce it causing him to bleed to death.
Roethlisberger also said, per Aditi Kinkhabwala of NFL Network, that his pain level is a nine out of 10 and that he got four hours of sleep in a chair each of the last two nights.
Bouchette doesn't believe Roethlisberger will play for "awhile," and that sounds about right. The Steelers quarterback is one of the toughest guys in the NFL -- pain only seems to make him stronger -- but risking his life in order to try and help the Steelers push for a playoff spot they might end up netting anyway is just silly.
Still, he played. It happens.
One more.
Alexander Ovechkin a couple of years ago when he was arguably the best player in the world played with a hurt knee.
While Ovechkin and the Washington Capitals didn’t give many specifics about the severity of his knee injury (beyond saying it was more serious than many realized), the team admitted that he dealt with problems for about two months, according to CSN Washington.
“I don’t want to say too much but it was way more serious than all you people were thinking,” Boudreau said. “There was a reason why he wasn’t practicing to save himself for the game. You know that when something’s wrong, something’s [really] wrong and he’s never going to be one of those guys that sits there and takes days off. He would take a practice off so he could play in the game.”
Ovechkin admitted to being hurt and intimated it could be more than one injury.
“I have a couple of injuries,” he said. “But it is what it is, I get hurt, everybody gets hurt.”
RG3 was not an isolated case. It happens.
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