Thursday, October 28, 2010
This is the way we wish we could remember Favre
This one is for you, JSR. This is the way we wish we could remember Favre. This is when I was a fan. This is when pretty much all football fans were a fan of Favre.
Again, it is sad because as a result of his actions the last couple of years (and he was free to act the way that he did), he forever tarnished his legacy. He will never be loved the way he would have been if he had just stayed retired when he made his orginial announcement.
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18 comments:
JKSD...I agree that we all loved Favre more back then, but why do you keep insisting that he should have stayed retired? That is the one thing I completely disagree with you on when it comes to Favre. He played at a VERY high level for 11 games with the Jets until he got hurt. Last year he had the best season of his career. The guy can still play at a high level. The problem is he's been hurt...Well the same thing happens with 22 year old dudes. Should they just retire also?
Favre has every right to continue to play football so long as his ability doesn't hurt a team's chances of winning. He can still be a top tier QB. He had to retire to free himself from his contract situation in GB so he could go elsewhere and continue to play. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is the manner in which he handled it. I'm sure it devastated him to know he'd no longer be a Packer, so I don't blame him for his tears. I do blame him for not being forthright and just saying he would look for another team to play for once he was free to do so. But by no means should he have stayed retired. I think he's proven that he can still play the game at a very high level since leaving GB.
One additional thought...
If he clearly indicated that the situation in GB wasn't working out and that he wanted to play and start, but that he'd have to go somewhere else to do so, the Packers fans would continue to adore him. It's a matter of him misleading his fans more than anything. Had he been honest, he'd have been treated like Gretzky or McNabb when he returned to Lambeau.
Okay. Let me be clear. His last year in GB was a great year. He played at a high level. I would have had no problem is he continued to play. He was still under contract. GB wanted him to continue to play. The fans would have loved it. Everyone is happy.
Perhaps, I wasn't clear. I don't say that he should have retired after Year 17. I just don't like that he says he is going to retire. GB does everything it can to keep him from retired but he is committed to retirement. GB does right by him in holding his retirement press conference in GB where it should be. A month later, Favre wants to play. GB says okay and will hand him his job back. When McCarthy goes to Hattiesburg excited to have Favre back, he is told by Favre and his wife that they changed their mind and he is staying retired. It's like showing your little kid the most delicious cookie in the world and he wants it badly but you keep pulling it from him time and again.
My point is that he made the decision to retire and he should have stuck with it. If he wasn't sure, then he should not have retired and he could have continued in GB.
Does this make more sense or is it still unclear?
On your final note, the situation in GB did not work out because of him. If after Year 17, Favre wanted to play and let the Packers know that but GB was intent on not having Favre and pushed him out, there is no question he would still be adored in GB and he would have gotten a loud ovation in his return. Fans are smart enough though to realize that Favre handled the situation poorly and he got the reaction from fans that you would expect.
Again, hopefully this is more clear.
He didn't want to go through training camp. It's that simple. It's the same reason he didn't participate in training camp this season. If the Packers wouldn't accommodate this request, then wouldn't that explain some of his indecisiveness?
Again, he should have been more clear about what he wanted. He thought he deserved the starting job regardless of how/when he showed up and that was a poor judgement on his part. I think things snowballed after that, which is why we now have Favre-a-palooza every offseason. It's his fault for not being open and honest. But putting the blame solely on his shoulders is an ignorant thing to do because we don't know what he was being told by the Packers organization that may have contributed to his waffling. All we've seen are the non-stop reports about his indecisiveness.
Deeps, what are you talking about?
Look at the timeline. GB was willing to make concessions and lighten his practice load. They told him that they will limit his work in practice and he still said "no."
He was not committed to playing football regardless of when he was going to show up. That is why he was waffling.
Tell me how GB did wrong by him. Let me ask you the same question I asked JSR. If you are the GB owner, GM, or coach, would you be willing to allow Favre the flexibity and indefinite amount of time to figure out whether he wants to play the next season or not even if this means I have to get Rodgers AND my team prepared as though Favre is not coming back but should he decide to return, even if it is a week before the start of the season, you would just scrap any work/preparations during the offseason and just hand the job back to Favre? Is that what you would do?
"Lighten his load" doesn't solve "didn't want to participate." I'm not saying GB didn't do what they needed to do to accommodate him. I'm saying they weren't doing what he wanted them to do for him, which was to let him show up when he was ready to. The only explanation for his waffling at that time had to be because he wasn't being told what he wanted to hear...In other words, he was being told he'd have to compete for the starting job OR that not showing up to training camp was not acceptable.
Look. I don't agree with how Favre handled the retirement situation, but I COMPLETELY understand why he felt like he was forced to retire. Despite the Packers doing what they needed to do to bring him back, he wasn't getting what he wanted from them and there were other teams out there that were willing to accommodate him. I cannot blame him for looking for an exit strategy. The only problem is the strategy was poorly executed.
Deeps, how do you know for a fact that after Year 17 he was truly feeling that he wanted to continue playing but only if he didn't have to come to camp? How do you know that in his retirement speech he wasn't sincere when he said that there was nothing left for him to give? How do you know that the ONLY explanation for his waffling at that time HAD to be because he wasn't being told what he wanted to hear? Isn't it possible that at that point, he had had enough. He accomplished all he needed to do and his body and mind just wasn't able to commit to football anymore.
Answer me this, if YOU truly wanted to continue playing the sport that you had played your entire life, would you have a retirement speech? Does that make sense? Do you think his retirement speech and the emotions he showed were fake?
You didn't answer the previous question. If you were part of the GB brass, would you give Favre an indefinite period of time to figure his shat out and hand him the keys regardless of when that would happen? Would you allow one guy to dictate how you operate your team/company?
All things aside...
An Excellent Video. Thanks for that.
That is exactly how I remember Favre. There is no doubt that the GB situation after year 17 was a mess and both sides probably could have handled it better and I do wish that he was more decisive and could have avoided the whole mess. Still though he is my favorite player in any sport.
I will speculate and say that once he retires for good and is being inducted into the Hall of Fame, five years down, Packers Fans and the NFL will look at him with almost the same reverance as the they did before he left Green Bay. Stepping back from the situation, it might be easier and clearer to see that the man did not want to retire because he had a deep love for playing the game.
That is just my opinion and hope.
He came back, which tells me he hadn't made up his mind that he was ready to call it quits when he "retired."
I don't think his emotions were fake. I think he was genuinely upset that he would no longer be on the Packers. Players retire and unretire all the time. Why is he the bad guy for doing the same thing that Jordan or John Smoltz, or John Daly, or a bunch of other athletes did? Because he cried? So f-n' what if he cried?
I did answer your question about the GB brass..."I'm not saying GB didn't do what they needed to do to accommodate him. I'm saying they weren't doing what he wanted them to do for him, which was to let him show up when he was ready to." The team had every right and should have moved on as if he wasn't coming back, but I just don't believe that they were as accommodating as your timeline makes them out to be.
Here's the bottom line for me. I'm taking a middle-ground here because I can play devil's advocate and see things from Favre's perspective. I seriously doubt the Packers are completely innocent in this issue. We're talking about grown adults on both sides in an industry filled with egos. There is no way in hell the Packers were as accommodating as you seem to believe they were. Your facts are limited to what is known. There are still many unknowns that get ignored because Favre has acted like a baby and that his the more popular story.
If the dude wants to play, let him play. If he wants to retire and come back, let him. He's a legend who deserves some slack. Maybe not as much slack as he wanted, but I don't like following the lemmings who want to pile on the guy just because he may have handled his shat inappropriately.
Good day Sir!
Deeps, you are losing me here, dude.
You said, "I'm saying they weren't doing what he wanted them to do for him, which was to let him show up when he was ready to. The only explanation for his waffling at that time had to be because he wasn't being told what he wanted to hear."
When I read this, I gather that you think if the Packers had said early on to Favre that if he didn't want to show up for camp, Brett would have accepted, there would not have been any waffling, and he would have continued with GB. Is that what you are saying?
You didn't answer my question. I am asking YOU what YOU would do in that situation. Basically, would you allow Favre indefinite time to figure his shat out and be ready to hand him the job if/when he chooses to return? I am not asking what GB did/didn't do or should/shouldn't have done. I am curious how YOU would have handled that situation. JSR has said that he would hand the keys back over at any time regardless of anything. I am curious if this is the way you would operate your team/company. It's nothing more than an interest in how YOU would play the situation.
I have said that Favre is free to do whatever he wants. And you are free to feel however you want. The differences in Jordan's retirement and Favre's retirement are different. JSR agreed that no two situations are the same and fans reactions need to be understood on a case by case basis. That said, it is easy to understand MJ's return as a celebration. However, it is just as easy to understand the majority of fans having negative feelings towards Favre now.
I guess I wasn't clear. I agree that GB approached the situation correctly...to an extent. They should not have had to let Favre come back whenever he wanted to and they shouldn't have had to be put in a bad situation because he may have been unsure about coming back. I would have been very clear about my team's intentions. We want you back. You will start when you return. All we need is assurance that you will be back on such and such date so we don't risk negatively impacting the offense. That date could have been a week or two before preseason for all I care. Favre would have been ready. If that's what they said, then they did the right thing. If it happened any differently they didn't.
We don't know how that conversation went...Why would Favre had said I want to come back, then say I'm not coming back when the coaches came to meet him? We don't know! It's just as likely that he was getting a raw deal from the Packers as it is that he was waffling for no reason. We don't know! You seem to be sure that Favre was completely at fault. I don't agree, so I cannot despise him like you do.
WHO THE F CARES!
It seems clear that Favre couldn't make up his mind (for a second straight year) and the Packers had Aaron Rodgers waiting in the wings.
They gave Favre an ultimatum on a date and he didn't come in so they moved on.
The Pack are better off. I doubt anyone would say they would rather have Favre than Rodgers.
Favre has been a carpet-bagging, ding dong texting dude ever since. Great for him if that's what he wants!
Robs...I completely agree. The root of my position is I really don't give an F-ing shart. Let him play and take pictures of his hog. The NFL is more entertaining with him than it will be without him, so just let it be.
I could have even lived with what you are saying. If Favre had said that I will return a week before preseason and be in it 100%, I'd take it.
At least we agree that the intentions should have been made clear on both sides early on and they should have agreed or disagreed.
You seem to have the impression that Favre waffled and said yes and then no because Favre got a raw deal from GB. First, assuming that he was given a raw deal (speculation), he still agreed to it and should have lived up to his word. Second, my impression is that he didn't waffle for no reason. It's like if you are going to make a big purchase say a car. You are at the dealership and you like the car but you are not 100% into it. The salesman is trying desperately to make the sale and convince you buy the car and you leave the dealership not having bought it but thinking that you will go in the next day to buy it but you sleep on it and you decide not to buy it. It's as simple as that. He couldn't make up his mind.
I feel more confident that the correct scenario is #2 given that the Packers truly tried to bring him back. They made concessions. Enough concessions for Favre to say okay, I'll come back.
In his retirement speech, Favre says, "There have been comments in the press lately about why I am leaving. Whether the Packers did enough. Whether Ted and Mike tried to convince me to stay. None of those things have any thing to do with me retiring and that’s from the heart. I’ve given anything I can possibly give to this organization…to the game of football. And I don’t think I got anything left to give and that’s it. I know I can play but I don’t think I want to and that’s what it really comes down to."
There is no reason to believe he wasn't being sincere in what he said.
Now, JSR says that he would have let Favre go on indefinitely and take him back regardless of when, where, how, who, what. JSR also agrees that GB was accommodating in trying to bring back Favre to a certain date.
Deepie, you seem to agree with me that GB needed to know by a certain date if/when he was coming back. GB made concessions and just asked Favre to please tell them prior to the draft what he wanted to do. Favre seemed committed to retiring and gave his speech at the beginning of March. The draft is at the end of April. Favre wavered at the end of March and GB still was willing to accept him as the starting QB. McCarthy made plans to fly to Hattiesburg on April 1 to make plans for Favre's return. McCarthy is leaving for evening Mass when Favre calls to inform him he has changed his mind. "We were all set for them, but Brett called back and that he and Deanna had a long talk about it and they were going to stick with their original decision."
Okay, fine. He is going to stay retired. GB is forced to move on and they prepare Rodgers and the team for Rodgers as the starting QB. In the draft, they selected Brian Brohm with their 2nd round pick thinking that they would need a suitable backup since Favre wasn't going to be there. Had they known Favre was going to come back, I am certain they could have used that 2nd round pick on a different position because QB wasn't a need.
So, again, you agree with me that there needed to be a deadline on Favre's decision so that the team could move forward. GB wanted him back and tried and GB gave him that deadline on when they wanted his decision. So I am having difficulty understanding from you how GB gave Favre a "raw deal" and how they should be blamed. The reactions by the majority of fans tells the story. If you can explain the "raw deal" and how/why GB should be blamed for the actions please do so.
Maybe you're completely right and Favre was completely at fault. Maybe you're not and there is something that we don't know that was said behind closed doors. He was going to say all the right things at his retirement speech. Why wouldn't he? He had a great career in GB and he wouldn't purposely jeopardize his relationship with the fans. I think that point of yours is moot.
We don't know everything that happened! So I maintain that all the anti-Favre backlash is unfair. If it was a raw deal in Favre's eyes, it was a raw deal.
SO, to hopefully put this to rest for good (you can keep going at this with JSR for all I care), I agree with you that the Packers did what they needed to do to move forward. I disagree with you that what they needed to do to move forward with Favre could only happen if Favre showed up on their terms. Something just doesn't sit right with me regarding how he left the team and for that reason I can't put the blame solely on him.
I'm out!
The guy was unsure if he wanted to batter his body anymore. I don't blame him for that. I also don't blame the Packers for saying no after he continued to waffle. The only thing I blame him for is feeling entitled to the Packers starting QB job.l
Not sure where that last paragraph came from...
So I think we are largely in agreement.
I don't care that he wanted to batter himself more either. That was within his right and if he felt like he could do it and wanted to do it, good for him.
You disagree with me that what they needed to do to move forward with Favre could only happen if Favre showed up on their terms. However, you agree that there needed to be a mutually agreed upon date when a decision needed to be made for both parties to move on. That is what the Packers gave him and he agreed to (by draft day). Whatever the terms were we do know two things (1) the terms were certainly a lighter load. How much we don't know. (2) the terms were good enough for Favre to say okay but then a few days later change his mind right when McCarthy was going to visit him in Hattiesburg.
Sure, we don't know everything. It's fine if you want to believe that GB somehow gave him a "raw deal." However, it seems that we know enough that GB made a number of attempts to get Favre including making concessions that would not be made to a regular player. They wanted a decision by a certain date so that they could plan their football operations during the offseason. Favre waited until the end of June before he changed his mind again and fully expected to be handed the starting job even though it was after the mutually agreed upon date for a decision.
Even though we don't know all the details and all of the discussions, it seems like we know enough where it is hard to put blame on GB for how they handled the situation. I'm sure they were saddened and frustrated by the way it all went down but at the end of the day they are running a football team/business and it seems like they operated in good faith and Favre genuinely couldn't make up his mind and while I don't believe he purposely meant to make it an ugly situation with GB, he did because he couldn't make up his mind.
I do think it does in the end boil down to Favre not being able to make up his mind fast enough. There was a lot of things behind the scenes we may never know about. I just think its unfair for the Packers or any franchise in any sport to close the doors to a Legend within their own their own family. He gave 17years of his life to that organization and kept them winning. Helped to significantly extended the fanbase outside of Wisconsin (fans like me), and help generate god knows how much more revenue for that team, lining the shareholders pockets, helped them to their first championship in 27 years prior. I think they could have given him another year or two. He was 38 when all this happened. Its not like he was going to play for another 10 years. Yeah they had Aaron Rodgers in waiting and entering a contract year. They probabaly feared that he would leave if Favre continued to play and they would be at the short end when Favre leaves and no Aaron Rodgers to take command (maybe could have applied the franchise tag). But also at the time Aaron Rodgers was unproven. Who knew he was going to be a great QB. Another key point in letting Favre continue as the Packers QB is the fact that they just played in the NFC championship game a few months before. It wasnt like they were a team on the downturn. If I were running a team, and we were one or two plays from reaching the superbowl, I really wouldnt change anything. Id make every effort to keep the same pieces in place. Yeah the Packers made a significant effort up to some point but I just think that Favre entering camp in July (when he wanted to return) and playing for the Packers that year would have given a better shot at a championship(they would have been legit contenders) than a new Aaron Rodgers.
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