Said in my best indian accent!
Not much to say about this one except that we just need to forget it and move on.
Here are my grades/lowlights:
1. Special Teams: D - This is really because of the blocked FG. Otherwise, there was not much to discuss. Punts, kickoffs, KRs, and PRs were all average.
2. Defense: D - It's one of the top offenses in the league and the defense kept it relatively close but the problem was that they got NO help from our offense. Still, not a great effort but they weren't the problem in this game.
3. Offense: F- - HORRIBLE!!! There was nothing good about this group. We were going up a bad defense and could not do anything. For the third week in a row, we were taken out of our run offense (not that it was doing much). Giving up 9 sacks is ridiculous! I get that some of those sacks fall on Beck but just bad line play that we haven't seen all year. I also recognize that we are missing a number of starters but it was just a BAD performance. O line has to play better. Beck was not very good. He didn't do anything to get things moving. It appears that in the last two weeks, defenses are taking away the run game and forcing our QB to make plays and whereas last week, I thought Beck was okay, this week he did nothing. I'm not sure how much falls on Beck and how much falls on coaching but it was just all bad. Another note was the number of deep balls Beck threw. I can appreciate throwing deep but the balls he threw sucked! He throws his deep balls like hail marys. It's like he is looking up in the air and just throws it up. He's throwing into double coverage and the WR isn't even open. There have to be better options than that. Just bad throws.
4. Coaching: F- - For the first time all year, I question Kyle Shanahan's offense. I get that he is strapped by the resources available to him but still he has to take some blame for the poor offensive play. As mentioned under the offense, I can appreciate Beck throwing deep but it seemed like he was hell bent to throw deep whether the WR was open or not. I wonder if he was told to do that or if Beck chose to do that. Either way...terrible! There just has to be better coaching done to put guys in better positions to be successful. B Mitch brought up the Pears in yesterday's post game and said how the Pears offense has looked better because of changes they have made and that is coaching. Again, Beck and the O line didn't do us many favors but the coaches have to do a better job as well. Also, the rollouts do not work with Beck. It's too predictable and teams are recognizing it.
All in all, just a dismal game. There are real questions now and answers will be expected. The interesting thing now is I think fans are getting a better sense of what we have with Beck. Fans aren't thrilled with Grossman either but we have a home game against the 49ers next week and if Beck struggles, fans will start wanting Grossman back in there (as fans operate like they own a fantasy football team). I would actually welcome that as I think Grossman is better (albeit still not that good) and I think the team would rally around him. I do expect to see Grossman again this year it's just a question of when.
I do still feel pretty good about the team. I do believe the defense has greatly improved from last year and finishing in the middle of the pack would be a success. We need to significantly upgrade the offense in the off season. We need to find ourselves a QB and then either find a WR in Paul or Hankerson or get someone in the draft.
HAIL SKINS!!!
52 comments:
I did not watch the game at all - let me start with that. I have read about the game and have heard about the game. Nothing in the score, the box score, or what I heard/read about the game is surprising at all to me.
Beck is a third string QB (at best) who is strangely starting. Looking at the numbers, he did nothing and ended up with some trash time yardage for the second week in a row.
I am sure that the locker room is questioning Shanny's decision to bench Rex. Say what you want about Rex, the guy can throw TD passes and when he is hot will win you games. Beck gives you nothing.
The D stinks. They had a couple of good games early, but I will continue to maintain that they should be playing a 4-3 with their personnel. They are slipping in their stats/ranking each week now that they are playing tougher teams.
The shot Shanny took at Haslett last week was somewhat surprising, but the backhanded shot that Haslett had for Shanny was also somewhat surprising.
I expect that Shanny will replace both his coordinators next year. There is clearly a problem with the coaching. However, the Deadskins look just like most other years we have seen under Danny Boy - talent-poor, no heart, poorly coached.
The only thing I cannot understand in your post is why you feel encouraged at all. I totally disagree with you that all you need is a QB and WR. You need offensive line, linebackers (Rock and Fletch are showing wear), two new corners (you can get by with Hall), and a safety who can cover. If you go back to the 4-3 then your D-line is OK, but if they continue to go with the 3-4 then you have to find a run-stuffing nose guard. But, next year they will be running the 4-3.
I accept that the O stinks but disagree that the D stinks. I admit they weren't good yesterday but there is still talent on that side of the ball and while I think we would be fine in the 4-3, now that the commitment has been made to the 3-4, I think you have to commit to it. It took GB a few years to make the transition. Shanny/Haslett said it takes three years to fully make the transition. I wouldn't want to change now because it would be more of the same Redskins where we don't commit and are in constant flux. Again, I think there is talent on that side of the ball and part of their struggles was because the O stunk and didn't give them any support at all.
I don't disagree about the locker room and Rexy/Beck. Again, I wasn't for the move in the first place and while Beck doesn't deserve all the blame, he is not doing well and the team has to feel that they were 3-1 (on the road to 3-2) with Rexy. If Beck doesn't perform at home against SF next week, the fans will want Rexy back too (although I really don't feel like we have a good QB on this team).
Not sure what the shots Shanny took at Haslett and vice versa.
I don't think the coordinators will switch unless they just continue to degrade. You have to have some continuity and can't just keep changing. I disagree that there was no heart (no indication of that) and I certainly believe there is talent on the team (we need more though particularly on the offensive side). I can accept the poor coaching.
We need to get our O line healthy and could use another G or C. TOTALLY disagree that Fletcher is showing signs of wear. In fact, he was the one bright spot yesterday. I haven't heard anyone other than you say that he is showing signs of wear. In fact, everyone seems to mention that he still plays at a very high level. 20 tackles, an INT, and .5 sack, and almost knocking Fitzpatrick out of the game certainly doesn't seem to indicate any signs of wear. McIntosh has been fine and is still in his 20s. CBs are fine. Kevin Barnes in at nickel is an issue. Would rather see Buchanon out there. Again, I don't have much issue with the defensive talent. Switching the 4-3 would be interesting but we had plenty of 4 down lineman yesterday.
The big issue is the O. It's more than getting healthy. We need a QB and we needed better coaching. I don't have access to the game tape and am sure I can't decipher it as well as experts but it's hard to tell how much of the issue is with players/execution and how much is on coaching.
Haslett is gone. Shanny will fire him or he will resign - but he won't be the DC next year. You need to read more about what Shanny and Haslett said about each other last week. It wasn't explicit criticism, but it was clearly there. It is patently obvious that they have conflict.
Kyle will also be gone unless there is a significant turnaround (unlikely). I expect Mike to take over to try to fix things. The Shannies have total control of this team. They picked their 24 receivers, they picked their QBs, they picked their O-linemen. They are supposed to be offensive geniuses. If after 2 years they have regressed like it appears they are regressing change will come.
I expect Beck to continue to be the QB for at least two more games. They will likely lose to the 49ers this week - before a sparse but totally upset and angered Deadskin crowd.
Then he will get a chance to play against 0-8 Miami (Miami plays at KC next weekend). Miami will eke out its first win and then Beck will be done in DC and people will be talking about firing Shanny.
I don't really think Snyder will fire Shanny, but maybe we will get Snyderatto III if things really fall apart.
Snyderatto III is where you really start losing it.
I didn't realize there was an issue with Haslett but I will dig deeper.
You have to remember we are still rebuilding. I have continually said that we needed to see improvement on the defensive side of the ball this season because of what we added their during the offseason.
I was willing to accept some offensive struggles because we really didn't improve ourselves much in terms of personnel on offense. We need to do that this offseason. I am willing (and most people SHOULD) give Shanny three years to fix the problems. If it isn't done in three years, then he is an issue. It's not completely fair to judge the offense given the amount of injuries/changes there but I still expected more than what we saw on Sunday. Again, hard to tell how much blame should go on the players or coaches.
Each game is interesting and Sunday will be no different. Each Sunday brings about surprises as well so what happens one week, guarantees nothing.
Here is the problem as I see it - I don't see significant talent upgrades on this team. I like Kerrigan, Trent Williams may be good if he can avoid injury, and Sav Rocca looks like a good pickup. Hightower is OK. But after that it doesn't look like they have much in the way of impact talent that is new to the team. Sure there are some special team contributors and guys who are playing in reserve roles, but for a team that is a perennial cellar dweller that is not enough.
Shanny is not known as a good talent evaluator. Bruce Allen is not a talent guy, he just works contracts. They need to get someone who can do that for them.
Maybe some guys will really develop, but right now this Deadskin team looks to be in real trouble.
I don't really expect Snyderatto III. But I also don't see this team winning 3 more games - if Beck plays, I doubt they would win 2 more games. The D will continue to see its stats sag and the fan base will become more vocal in its criticism. None of that matters if the team sticks together, but frankly, I think there are fractures in the locker room that will start to show themselves. Certainly Beck v. Rex is an issue, but you saw London going after Landry for his blown play on the second Chandler TD.
If the finger pointing starts up then you have to wonder about Shanny's ability to lead.
I have to question whether this team is indeed improved from last year or any other year in the last 20.
Im sorry but a rebuilding team that is supposed to be a year away from being competitive for a playoff spot does not get shut out and perform this poorly. I was right in my suspicion of this team when they eeked by the lowly Rams, barely beat the Cardinals at home, and beat up on a banged up Giants team in the opener.
The fact is the Redskins are not a good team. I cant even believe there was a comparison made with this team and the Chicago Bears a few weeks ago. Situationally (not sure if that even a word but you get what im saying), the Bears were playing tougher opponents and handled themselves well where as the skins were playing weaker opponents and were barely winning. The Bears are looking 100% better than the Deadskins which is why you cant pay any attention to power rankings, especially early in the season. The Redskins are not even close to becoming a top tier team. They cant expect to draft a QB next year and have him miraculously understand the offense and win games out of the gate. It will take 2-3 years for the QB to mature, on top of that they need to draft receivers, build an Offensive line, and a new RB for his support in development. Not to mention the failing Defense. Landry SUCKS. he is overrated and i would not want him on my defense. He is a freelancing liability who consistently gets beat and is caught out of position often. Kerrigan isnt all that he was talked up to be. He has 2 sacks in 7 games. There is not star on that Defense except for the aging london fletcher. dont even say orakpo, he has 4.5 sacks in 7 games and more than half of his total came in the game against the rams.
They are easily 3 years away, and Shannahan does not have that much time. Unless something miraculously happens in the next week, expect more losing and more frustrations and eventually Snyder losing his patience.
Another loss like this (which is likely given that they have to play all their division rivals and the this week the 49ers)and you have to think Snyder is thinking of relieving Shanny.
The talent on the defense is there. There are plenty of quality players there (Orakpo, Kerrigan, Fletcher, Landry, D. Hall even the remaining guys are solid). I don't worry too much about that side.
The offseason was good with Kerrigan, Jenkins, Atogwe, Helu, Paul, possibly Hankerson, Cofield. These guys are guys with talent and play with heart. It was a good offseason and I am content in saying that. The problem is that Shanny/Allen could not possibly correct all of the issues in just one offseason. I think you would agree with that. Do you think they could have/should have?
I think there may be some fractures about the Rexy/Becksy thing and we'll see how that plays out.
The Fletcher/Landry thing is a non issue. Fletcher was upset at Landry on the play because Landry thought it was a run and did not drop back into coverage. He showed some emotion as a number of players across the league do. Landry said after the game that he blew it and I believe that is the end of it. There is no reason to believe that there is a deeper issue and to try and make one there is silly. I had no problem with that.
Its got to be the coaching.
In my opinion:
The Shannys and Haslett are not the answer. theyve gone through 3 QBs in less than 2 years. They are failing to prepare the team to win every week. Getting shut out at this level of the game just means that there was lack of preparation. Its happened more than once and will happen again this year. I would be for letting Shannahan go this offseason especially if there is an ambitious coach out there with something to prove (not bill cower either).
Also:
I just dont understand why they cant find the next Harbaugh (look what they did with the 49ers and Ravens), Sean Payton, Mike McCarthy, Andy Reid, Bill Belichick, Jim Schwartz, Lovie Smith, Bill Cowher, Wisenhunt. Theres tons more. These guys are out there. Hungry to win. All guys who were not proven before their success. Some one has to scout these guys out and find the next innovative coach for the Redskins. I dont see any success coming with their current coaching.
JSR, we never compared the Skins with the Pears. The discussion was that Robs thought the Pears were Super Bowl contenders.
I love how you say that you can't understand why they can't find the next Harbaugh. If it was really that simple, we would have found that guy. If it was that simple all struggling teams would have found that guy. It's hit or miss. For the guys you mentioned, look at the other side. Look at Spagnuolo, Frazier, Sparano, Phillips, Garret.
It was a bad game and there are reasons to be upset and disappointed but you can't have a knee jerk reaction and just fire the coach. You were saying yourself that Snyder should show some patience. Again, we are rebuilding and Shanny inherited a bunch of garbage. To fire him and bring in some one else is starting over and just putting us back into a state of flux. We had a good offseason and I believe we have 12 picks in the upcoming draft. If we can have the same type of success, we can improve. Again, I believe there is decent talent on the defensive side of the ball. We need to get healthy on offense and then add some more talent there (specifically a QB) and we can make bigger improvements.
Again, it was disappointing last Sunday and I was bothered by the coaching in that if we were giving up sacks and there was pressure, why not add a TE or a back for extra protection. There are things coaches can do to help and there are also things they can do at halftime to make adjustments. Gibbs was well known for that. We need better effort from the team and the coaches. It will be interesting to watch the coming weeks. I believe Shanny has instilled order and discipline on the team. We need some better players on offense and Kyle Shanny is coming into question. I'm curious how much Mike Shanny is involved with the offense and if he will try and engage more. Still, this coaching staff is going to have to prove themselves this season and certainly next season or else it will be time for change. Three years is plenty of time in today's NFL to form your team and instill your systems to be competitive. We'll see.
I agree about not worrying about one game. However, where I would be concerned is that there is some tension between Shanny and Haslett and there appears to be a problem with having Beck as QB when Rex was 3-2.
I also would say that it is not clear that the Deadskins got a huge influx of talent from their draft picks or free agents. They are all OK, but not really impact players. That said, some of them may end up being very good players as they develop. We'll see.
What I think is disappointing is that on the defensive side of the ball there really aren't any injuries but there does seem to be regression. Some of that can be attributed to playing weaker teams (Cards and Rams, injured Cowboys) but there seems to be more than that - coaching, dissention, unreported injuries, talent - we'll learn more in coming weeks.
If the Deadskins lose, but play hard that is fine and you can point to progress. But, if the Deadskins play like they did against Buffalo the rest of the year, then it will be time to consider another major overhaul (players, some/all coaches, maybe some within the organization).
How they respond at home to the 49ers and then how they play against the Dolphins will go a long way to determining where the Deadskins are.
What is the tension? I haven't heard/read/seen anything about this. The only thing I read was that after the Carolina game, Shanny said something like that he needs to do a better job of getting the defense ready to play. Haslett agreed with the comment and said that he regularly talks to Shanny about how he would attack the defense that Haslett has prepared. Is this what you are referring to? If so, it's a non issue.
Head coaches regularly discuss strategy with their coordinators. You should know this well as Lovie has had to talk to Martz a few times about going pass happy. Would you say that they have tension?
There is no question we improved in the offseason. Not every pick/FA is going to be an impact player. We certainly have players that are or have the capability to be impact players on defense and we are much better on that side of the ball than we were last year.
Again, it was a disappointing effort last week and I expect better because we have talent there.
I said before the season that I expected 7-9 wins this year but that I wanted to be competitive and see improvemet specifically on the defensive side of the ball as that is where we seemed to focus the majority of our offseason acquisitions (picks and FAs).
Again, it was disappointing last week. However, I didn't feel like players gave up. I think our offense has regressed. A portion of that is due to the number of injuries we have sustained but I believe the bigger issues are the QB play and the coaching. I do believe in Kyle Shanny. He is taking a lot of heat right now but most people believe that he is unqualified for the job and only got it because he is Shanny's son. Kyle was the Texans OC and had success there. He is confident and I believe he knows what he is doing. The players seem to believe in him. However, from what I saw on Sunday, he needs to improve and get our players in better situations to be successful.
Shanny will dump Haslett if the D slides. They used their first round pick and FA money in an effort to improve the D. I think he was sending a message to the team and to Haslett.
I would say there is tension Martz and Lovie. I think Martz is on a short leash this season, but he and Lovie have worked together before and if the Bears have success then he will likely be back. That said, I think there is a 50-50 chance right now of him being fired versus coming back.
You keep saying there is "no question" that the Deadskins improved. I think this is a question that won't be answered until the end of the season. It is not really looking that great right now, but maybe things will turn around.
So your claims of tension are a result of that comment? If so, that's a non issue. Coaches talk to their coordinators all the time and just like family, there will be times when they disagree but that is the nature of that relationship. In fact, it doesn't even seem like they disagree. Again, that is something you want to make into an issue but there really is nothing to indicate that they are at each other.
The defensive personnel is much better. Last year, we were significantly older and slower and had guys playing well out of position. The results showed that. The defense is much improved and the numbers support that. Last week wasn't a great performance and there are a few concerns I have. Namely Kevin Barnes in on nickel situations and Landry needs to get back to last year's play. He missed games last season, most of the offseason/preseason, and games this season but he needs to get better. Still, it is a solid group. They also need the offense to help them out and that is where the larger concern is.
Just some observations.
I dont think Shanny has 3 years. he has one more season tops. If he cant get his team prepared better than they were on Sunday, itll be less than that.
It wasnt just one game. Its happened before (Eagles monday night last year) and will happen again. I dont care if you have players that dont fit the system on the team. To get shut out or blown out at this level falls squarely on the coaching and getting these guys motivated to win. It isnt like these these players have never played football before where they dont know what to do.
There is just no excuse for getting shut out.
I understand that the next great coach cant always be found but today its the upstart coach who out to prove that is more likely to be successful where as Re-Treads rarely work.
And with the amount of coaches that the skins have had during snyders ownership you would think that probability would favor them to find one that can build a dominating team. but its the same result everytime for the past 20 years. It will be the same result this time too because the Skins need a QB and shanny does not have the time to draft or find a QB and groom him to be championship caliber.
If the Redskins cant keep the rest of the games atleast close (within a td) then you have to admit this team isnt improved (personally I dont think it is, but the end will tell). I dont see them even going 7-9. That means they would have to go 4-5 the rest of the way out. If you look at their schedule, it seems very far fetched. They will win 2 more games(Dolphins and Cowboys) and finish 5-11.
Read up on your Deadskins and think a bit. I'm not the only one who has the view that there is trouble between Shanny and Haslett. I really don't care whether you agree or not - it is what it is.
I think they have some better personnel - if they ran a 4-3. They don't have the right personnel for a 3-4. We'll see how they finish up. No need to fuss about it right now, time will tell if I have been correct or not.
A significant improvement for their 3-4 scheme would not have been Kerrigan - it would have been a huge NT or a speedy ball-hawking safety. They could have also looked at trying to find a shut down corner.
Kerrigan would have been great with Orakpo in a traditional 4-3 because you could just line up and get pressure on the QB with your front four. Cofield and Bowen are solid DTs. The problem with drafting Kerrigan is that they already had the rush linebacker in Orakpo. The don't really have a true weak side coverage/tackling linebacker.
Teams are picking up on that and will continue to abuse the Deadskins with their TEs and running back flare/screen patterns. Any 3rd and 6 is going to be an easy first down against the 3-4 the Deadskins run because of their personnel issues.
JSR, I'm not saying he should have three more years. I'm saying a coach should be able to start reaping benefits in year three of his tenure. Shanny is in year 2. If we get slaughtered from here on out, I would probably say that he should be fired at the end of this year. If we lose out and continue to lose throughout next year, no question he should be fired.
I am not quite sure what you are saying though. Before you seemed to think that Snyder should show some patience and allow Shanny to rebuild but now it seems like you are saying that if we struggle, he should be fired. Which one is it?
What proof do you have that the "upstarts" are more successful? You gave a few names but I gave you names as well. We could throw Carroll, McDaniels, Petrino, Spurrier. You mentioned Whisenhunt but he has a career losing record and went 5-11 last year and they have won only one game this year and don't look that great. Schwartz was 2-14 in his first year, 6-10 in his second year, and is now (in year 3) seeing the benefit of his work. There is no guarantee that the "upstarts" will succeed. Again, if it was that simple, everyone would find that "upstart." Heck, Kyle Shanny was even considered one of the young bright "upstarts" a couple of years ago.
Also, it's been one game this season. We can't pull out one game last year. It was a different team entirely. Again, we are in the middle of a rebuild. No one has ever claimed that this team was ready for a deep playoff push.
Robs, you make it seem like there is plenty of proof that there is a clear divide b/t Shanny and Haslett. All I am saying is that I haven't seen/read/heard it. If it is so well known, please show me. If you are going based on that one comment I provided than it is a non issue.
Robs, we won't know if we are better in the 4-3 unless we actually ran a 4-3 so it is debatable.
Again, on Sunday there were plenty of 4 down linemen sets. I have not had an issue with the scheme as of yet. Who knows how they would perform in a 4-3. Many people believed Orakpo would convert to a LB when he was drafted. We can ponder all you want but unless we see them shift to a 4-3, we can only speculate.
Here are some facts - and I do mean facts:
1. No matter what happens, Shanny will be back for at least one more year. He has a guarranteed $21M for three more years after this year. He will get one more year - unless he decides on his own to walk away. (I assume he won't walk away.)
2. The Deadskins will get rid of Haslett. Unless the Deadskins somehow completely turn things around on D, I expect they will be ranked in the bottom third by the end of the year and Haslett will be out.
3. The new defensive coordinator - whoever it is - will probably still go with the 3-4 next year because Shanny is stubborn. The Deadskins will need at least 4 key players to run it effectively - NT, ball-hawking safety that can cover, a weakside outside linebacker who can cover in space, and another cornerback. They won't get all of them so the team will still be a bottom half defense next year.
4. Kyle Shanny will be back because where else is he going to go after 2 sub-par years. He is protected because Shanny is protected. The Deadskin offense will be better if they get some offensive linemen, some of their WRs develop, and they draft a QB who can take over by about mid-year next year. They will either play Rex or have to get another vet to play the first half next year.
Here is what I THINK will happen
1. The Shannies will walk away after next year when the Deadskins finish 7-9.
I'm glad that you have the facts AND you mean that they are facts. I like that.
Agree with number 1. No reason to believe he will leave and no reason to get rid of him because we need consistency AND the money.
Could agree with number 2 if the defense collapses. I don't have reason to believe this right now. Although the offense does need to help this defense out.
Don't really agree with number 3.
There is no reason to believe Kyle Shanny should go. He is enemy #1 right now in Skins nation but those fans are silly. These are the same fans who wanted Becks in a couple of weeks back but listening to talk radio are thinking that we may have pulled Rexy out too quickly. It's silly but it's fans. Kyle certainly has to improve but we need to get healthy on offense and also need to add some talent (particularly a QB).
OK, look they aren't really "facts" but they will be. They are clearly predictions.
I do think the Shannies will be gone after next year because they aren't good at player evaluation and there is still no true GM or scouting department within the organization.
OK so predictions aren't facts but I like that you mean that your predictions are facts. That's funny.
I know Mike Shanny is known to be a poor talent evaluator. However, who ever scouted the guys we picked up in the offseason, I am comfortable with that person(s) as I like the guys we brought in.
The issue is that even though this is Shanny's second year. It really feels like it is our first year rebuilding. The Mc5 experiment was a big mistake. I think Shanny thought we could win quickly and tried to go with what we had. I think he realized that we need to overhaul and that started this offseason. We are going to take a step back before we go forward. Again, I am comfortable with the talent on the defensive side of the ball. I am not comfortable with the talent on the offensive side of the ball. Again, we need our O line to get healthy and probably add a guard. We need for one of the young WRs to develop or get someone that can be that playmaker. But most importantly we need that franchise QB that we have been searching for. It's not Becks or Rex. We need a guy that can make plays. I would have been fine with keeping JC as I think he would have been a solid option but what's done is done. Will be interesting to see who we draft.
You are patient - and I think you have to be. But, I am beginning to really wonder about whether Shanny is the right guy for the job.
I would not suggest firing him right now, but the choice to go to Beck has been disasterous so far and really threatens the entire organization.
I also think his decision to shift to the 3-4 was a horrible mistake. The Deadskin D was a pretty solid unit under Zorn. They really have the same personnel (or type of personnel) except for Kerrigan. If they would just commit to returning to the 4-3 they would be a much better bunch.
In the end, I think the Deadskins will end up lower than I expected this year. Then, Shanny will have one more year to get this mess turned around. He really is running the Deadskins about the way he ran the Broncos - which is why he got fired in Denver.
You HAVE to be patient. You need to build some consistency. It's the ONLY way to tell if a guy is the right person for the job. Shanny has brought about order and discipline and cleaned house so in that respect we are much better off. Again, for the first time since probably Marty we actually seem like we are doing a true rebuild.
I wouldn't say the choice to go with Beck has been disasterous. Rexy wasn't great although I would have stuck with him but given the way the offense has been decimated, it's hard to say what Rexy would have done. I do believe that we will see Rexy again in the next week or two. The thing I find funny are Skins fans that wanted Beck before and are now questioning the decision. They can't have it both ways. I pretty much predicted this as going to happen a couple of weeks ago.
Again, 3-4 vs. 4-3 is debatable but cannot be proven which is better unless we move to the 4-3 with the same personnel. Again, we did a fair amount of 4 down linemen in the last game and it didn't really work any better. Also, statistically the defense was pretty good for a few years back in the Gibbs/Zorn era but we could never stop teams when we needed to. Reviewing this defense in its entirety this season, it has been more dynamic. They need to play harder than they did last Sunday but I am confident there is enough talent out there to be solid.
Offense will need to be addressed in the offseason. We need a QB. Will be interesting to see if we use our first pick on a QB and who will be available (Landry Jones, Matt Barkley, etc.).
I don't HAVE to be patient if I don't want to. I think there are serious questions about the direction of the team. Everything from the the talent level to the coaching to the front office decisions are open to question because of what is happening on the field.
I can say something about the 3-4 vs. the 4-3. Last year the Deadskins had the worst defense in the organization's history in over 50 years. They were coming off a fairly good year defensively. When you look at the personnel it is pretty clear that the team lacks key players to play the 3-4 at a high level. I have pointed these deficiencies out to you already. It is not rocket science - it is simple.
If you are running the Tampa 2 you need certain key players.
When you run a base 4-3 you need certain players.
When you play the 46 you need certain players.
When you play the 3-4 you need certain players. The Deadskins don't have the right players.
Shanny will be back next year, but I am starting to have significant doubts about his leadership of the organization. He was never a good talent evaluator and it seems to be showing. I don't see the big influx of talent, nor do I see a unified and disciplined locker room. It may be better than last year's circus - but that is not saying much. We'll see as the season progresses what the true nature of the organization is.
Any team that fires coaches after one or two seasons will find it VERY difficult to build a winner because they cannot build consistency and are in a constant state of flux.
I don't have nearly the same concerns as you. This is far from a dire situation as you seem to be making it out to be. It seems very apparent from listening to the players that the locker room this season is like night and day compared to last year. Everyone I have heard talks about the discipline and order the staff has brought and it is unlike anything they have experienced.
Yes, we were coming off of a reasonable year on defense two years ago. Yes, we sucked last year. We have made dramatic improvement this season. I am not sure how you can definitively say that we would be markedly better in the 4-3. That's fine if it is your opinion but that is all it is. AGAIN, we ran plenty of 4 d linemen fronts against Buffalo and there were still issues. Part of the problem with the defense now is that our offense is going three an out all the time.
I am very satisfied with the offseason acquisitions/strategy. We need another one similar this offseason where we focus more on the offense.
I have not seen anything indicating major rifts or divisions in the locker room. If you want to point out benign comments and want to read into that go ahead. D. Hall just said earlier this week that this team won't quit because Shanny won't allow for that. I'm sure that is the common sentiment among the team. I do think there are those that question the change to Beck but I think Shanny has the credibility and done enough to have people follow him. If it was Zorn, I would have much bigger concerns.
I am not saying that Shanny guarantees championships. However, I don't see the issues that you seem to want to bring up. I also do think we had a successful offseason and I would gladly take Kerrigan, Jenkins, Cofield, Bowen, Atogwe over Daniels, Wynn, Holliday, Moore, Alexander.
Again, there are no indications of a division in the locker room. You want an indication of a division then look at your own Pears where there is a clear division b/t players and management.
You keep repeating yourself as if you want to convince yourself.
Obviously we disagree on the talent, personnel, and defensive scheme.
Shanny may be the right guy, but he was fired in Denver for a valid reason - questionable personnel moves and weak results on the field. He is doing the same in DC.
We'll see who is correct in their assessment of the Deadskins as the season wears on.
Funny because I could say the same thing about you. What I love though is you try and pawn your opinions/predictions off as facts (whether you are joking or not).
Actually listening to Cooley on LaVar and Dukes podcast right now and he is pretty much agreeing with me. He is saying that he likes the coaches and believes in the rebuild and that it will take some time. Cooley's words, “Our fan base hates our owner because he can’t ever keep a coach, he’ll never keep players, he’ll never keep guys around, he changes it and it’s like a fantasy football team to him. But then everyone calls in and says we gotta get rid of Kyle Shanahan, we gotta get rid of Mike Shanahan, we gotta trade Chris Cooley. I hate it, what we’ve got to do is keep consistency over a period of time and continue to try to build.”
He also said that there was no one in the locker room that quit. I'll trust Cooley's words about the locker room over either me or you.
Again, you want to find a rift, look at your Pears.
We only have opinions. I'm not pawning anything - I'm telling you what I think.
What is Cooley supposed up say. The guy is hanging by a thread to his Redskins' career. He is probably washed up and could very well end up a cap cut in the off-season. He has about $10 million reasons to lie.
You're telling me what you think? Well, so am I.
Listening to Cooley over the years, I have never thought of him as a liar. I will say that he is a positive guy but also a guy that seems like a straight shooter. Anyway, it's not just him saying that there is belief in the coaches and in the locker room. Look at D. Hall, Fletcher, Orakpo, Kerrigan, Cofield. They all say that the team is committed. I see that they are frustrated but I have not seen any indication of a rift. Now these guys may all be lying or trying to protect the locker room and be politically correct that gets down to our opinion of things.
Teams often will try to protect the locker room and keep team matters inside the locker room. Again, you want to find a rift, look at your Pears. What's interesting is they don't even want to hide their feelings anymore. There is a clear lack of trust amongst players towards management. Heck, even the opposition is saying, "Pay the Man!"
No sh*t Sherlock - but I am not the one who is always accusing you of bias or hating or saying sh*t like, "What I love though is you try and pawn your opinions/predictions off as facts (whether you are joking or not)."
That was the purpose of my comment.
Whatever about Cooley. He has a very clear incentive to tow the company line. I don't need a bunch of lip service from players who are obviously not committed. If they were so committed they wouldn't have stunk so bad on the field. You want to believe them that is perfectly fine with me.
The difference with what is happening with the Bears is that the locker room is clearly united and they respect their coach. Any complaints are about their contracts and Angelo/front office issues.
I am so sick of the whole, "Pay the Man" crap. The Bears have offered $15M guarranteed. I am sure they would be willing to go a bit higher, but Forte wants the crazy DeAngelo Williams/Chris Johnson money. Those were bad contracts that he should never get.
If I were him, I would ask for $18M and settle for $17M. I'm sure the Bears would do it.
You were the one that said, "Here are some facts - and I do mean facts," and then proceeded to list your opinions. How is my statement incorrect?
Fine, I get it. You have your opinions of the Pears and Skins and I have my opinions of them. We'll leave it at that.
Good day, sir!
Touchy! It was obvious I was joking as I indicated earlier.
You are still the one who cries out reasons why my opinions should be considered invalid.
That is your SOP.
I'm touchy? You're the one saying "No sh#t, Sherlock." Whatever, dude.
I didn't say your opinions should be invalid. When did I say that? I just said that you have your opinions and I have mine and we'll leave it at that.
BTW - the Pears divide is not just with players and management. Pretty much every locker room distrusts management in the NFL, but the Bears have a long history in this regard. Much has been written and discussed about a divide this season. How they dealt with Chris Harris is another issue with players and coaches/management.
"If you look at the tape, [Harris] was doing what's he supposed to do," Bears defensive back D.J. Moore said. "Like everybody you make bad plays and whatnot, but like everybody you could probably tell it was bad blood somewhere, I would think. If you go from starting to not starting and then all of a sudden, you're just gone, there's got to be ego somewhere."
Moore continued about the Forte issue, "It's always a business," Moore said. "They letting go of Chris, they need to just pay Forte. It's pointless. If I'm the best player on the team, I wouldn't even play. It doesn't make sense for you [the front office] to wait to pay him and you make all kind of other moves and stuff. And the most important thing [should be] to make your best player on the team feel like he's the best player on the team."
The thing is these are clear sentiments by a Pear player (and I'm sure he is not alone in his thinking) pointing to a rift. You have nothing like this. You just have a feeling that the Skins have some type of deep divide. I give you quotes from players saying there is no divide but you would rather trust your opinion. Still, it's fine to have your opinion.
Dude, you cannot seem to follow the thread.
When you say I am just biased or that I just hate the Deadskins, you are obviously saying that my views on the Deadskins are invalid. I accept your opinion but as I said above you will counter with crying or with the kind of comment I called you on above.
As for what Moore said, thanks for pulling out a largely irrelevant quote. You think Bears players have a problem in the locker room?
Do you think Chris Harris was mistreated?
There is no comparison between the Bears locker room and the Deadskin locker room. You can try to compare them if you like but it is a silly comparison.
Has Forte's contract issue affected his play? Has Briggs played poorly? Has D.J. Moore been dogging it on the field?
On the other hand, was Chris Harris playing well?
Who got released? Oh yeah, the guy who was getting burned 2-3 times a game.
Dude, can you read? I just finished my last post with "it's fine to have your opinion." I said that multiple times in this thread.
Do you think Moore spoke independently of the entire team? Do you think his feelings reflect more than just his own? Harris barely played this season because of injury. He was a 2nd team All Pro last season and after being benched, he asked if he could seek a trade, and they cut him. I'm sure that created some hard feelings for some of the players. Moore's comments are proof of that.
Forte has come out and said "I know I'm loyal to my teammates and my team are my guys, but it doesn't seem like the organization is to me."
Greg Olsen recently said that the Bears were "unprofessional" in their dealings with him that led to a trade before the season
It's not often that you see teams speaking so openly about their dissatisfaction with front-office decisions.
Then there is Briggs and a number of teammates being vocal about the organization needing to pay Forte. He also went on twitter to voice displeasure with the cutting of Harris.
There are numerous examples indicating that the locker room is divisive with management and probably to a lesser degree with Lovie for cutting Harris.
Yet, you will say that the Skins locker room has a large rift based on your own opinion. Despite the number of players that are saying they are committed and supportive of the coaches, you believe there is a divide but we have not heard/read anything.
Again, it is fine to have your opinion and believe that the Skins have by far the bigger rift in their locker room compared to the Pears but then you wonder why I believe you have your biases.
Good night!
The difference - AGAIN - is that the Deadskins appear to have fissures between players and between players and the coaches.
The Bears' players complain about the front office.
Chris Harris asked if he could seek a trade and he was allowed to do so - no one wanted him. After he was cut the only team that put in a waiver wire request for him was Detroit. They may or may not keep him, but he will be useful in giving info about a division rival.
Harris gave up a long play against Atlanta, he messed up on the CJ bomb and the Best run against the Lions. He looked slow and out of place throughout the game against the Lions and Tampa - he was benched against the Vikings. He gave up the late TD against Tampa that gave Tampa life. He looks like he is a step and a half too slow, and on top of that he was constantly complaining. It was time for him to go.
But you know how I know that the Bears issues aren't really all that significant - especially compared to the Deadskins? The Bears are winning and the Deadskins are losing.
Let me ask you this - what do you think the Bears should give to Forte?
They have made long term contract offers, he just doesn't like them. What should he be paid?
You don't have any proof of fissures b/t players and players and coaches. It is solely your opinion based on nothing. It's fine to have an opinion but it's more valid when it is based on something.
Again, it's pretty astounding how vocal Pears players have been towards management.
The Pears beat a down Viqueens team and a TB team that has been uneven and was down to third string RB Kregg Blumpkin. We'll see if they can beat some stronger opponents in the Eagles and Lions. I suspect they won't.
I have forgotten what Forte was offered and what the going rate is for RBs in the league.
He is certainly by far the Pears MVP as he accounts for nearly all their offense. Without him, the Pears would be no where. His salary right now is embarrassing.
The Bears win. I'm not astounded. It is a big media market and you have the top NFL running back looking for a new deal. So?
The Bears have been very good at managing the cap and extending players that they wanted to extend. This year will be no different.
The Deadskins are losing - badly - and there is plenty of evidence to suggest that there are issues between players and with the coaches - London/LaRon, Arsenio/Haslett, Haslett/Shanny, the whole Rex vs. Beck dynamic, Hankerson/Beck.
So - what would you pay Forte? The Bears have given fair offers in my opinion. I love Forte, but don't have any real issue with their contract offers. I want to know what you think is fair.
So do you think Ovie has an issue with Boudreau? Is that a fissure that divides the locker room?
It could if Oviedo mopes. It could if the Caps lose games. However it is unlikely because Ovie came to practice and skated hard.
What do you think is fair for Forte. You keep bringing it up, but you haven't given any option for the Bears.
So let me try and understand. You think Fletcher yelling at Landry for blowing coverage leading to a TD where Landry acknowledged he made a mistake is evidence of an issue between the two? You believe there is more to it than that one play? We haven't heard anything more about that play other than when it happened but you believe there to be an issue?
Now you believe Boudreau sitting Ovie and Ovie getting visibly upset and calling Boudreau a "Fat F#%K" is not an issue? Despite the fact that it got local and national coverage?
Given what I believe are your feelings on the Fletcher/Landry incident, I can only assume that you would believe there to be an issue between Vick and Reid because during the Skins game Vick missed a read that resulted in the Eagles having to punt the ball and Reid pulled Vick aside and was somewhat in his face yelling at him. I assume you believe them to have an issue.
I assume you believe Romo to have an issue with his WRs for getting angry at them for linin up wrong/running the wrong routes. I assume you think that this is an issue in the locker room.
I assume you believe Dez Bryant has an issue with his position coach and Romo for not getting him the ball in the Eagles game. He was visibly upset on the sideline and could be seen saying he was open "all day." I assume you believe them to have an issue in the locker room.
I guess what I'm getting at is stuff that seems like regular occurences where guys get upset in the heat of the game over a missed assignment, bad play, a receiver upset at his QB for not seeing him open, etc. just appear like one time deals, I am assuming you believe these all to be deeper issues that result in locker room divisions. Because you can't say that the Fletcher/Landry issue is any different than the others and then say that that situation results in a deeper locker room divide but the others don't.
Do you get what I am saying?
Don't pick just one thing for the Deadskins. Look at the full picture and the fact that they are losing. The Fletcher/Landry thing may be over with, but it is just one of several examples that seem to indicate that there is a larger problem.
You keep bringing up the Forte "Pay da Man" nonsense. I posted about it today. Given that you keep talking about it, but clearly seem to know very little about it, I suggest you read my post.
Okay. Let me pull up all your "squabbles":
London/LaRon: Again, Fletcher was upset because LaRon thought run and missed his coverage leading to a TD. Fletcher got upset. LaRon acknowledged he was at fault and said there was no issue. Additionally, there has been no further news of these two being at each other but I assume you think there is a bigger beef b/t these two leading to a rift in the locker room.
Arsenio/Haslett: This was in week 3 where Haslett called a zero blitz and Romo completed a long pass for a first down leading to the game winning FG. D. Hall was upset at the call. D. Hall met with Haslett and they went over the film and D. Hall said that after looking at the film, he understood the call. There has been no further discussion of any difference b/t the two but I assume you think they have a rift.
Haslett/Shanny: After the Panther game, Shanny said that he needs to get the defense better prepared. He also said that he needs to get the entire team better prepared. Haslett has said that he agrees that Shanny should be part of the defense and he regularly meets with him to see how he would attack the defense Haslett has prepared. However, I assume you think they have a rift b/t them.
Hankerson/Beck: This was clearly a miscommunication b/t them on a route in the Panther game. It was I believe Hankerson's first regular season action and Beck's first start of the season. Beck acknowledged that it was his fault and made that very clear. There has been no further news on that play or any divide b/t the two players. However, I assume you think they have a beef with one another that is carried over into the locker room.
The only one that I can possibly agree with you is the Becks vs. Rex issue. As I can imagine some players questioned the decision.
However, the comments coming from players and the beat writers are that the players are committed and still respect the coaching staff and the systems. There is a feeling of frustration and that is natural for a team that is struggling. Show me a team struggling that isn't frustrated and I will tell you that they are a bunch of losers for not caring.
Again, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers regularly yell at their O line and WRs for missing assignments/running wrong routes. Do you believe they have deeper issues in their locker rooms? Coaches regularly jump on players for poor play. Do you think they have deeper issues? It's simple. Either you agree that all these teams have deeper issues or you recognize that these are blips on the radar screen. You have to be consistent and call them all one way and not call the Skins one way and the rest of the NFL another way.
Do you understand where I am going?
The comments coming from the Pears about management and to a lesser degree how they handled Harris are much different than what we typically see coming from camps.
Don't worry. I will responde to your Forte issues.
Look at your post - just look at the number of issues. If you don't think there are locker room issues that is fine with me. I think you are wrong, but we will see how the season progresses.
Squabbles with management are not the same as locker room issues.
What has Bears management done wrong? Nothing. The guys know it and it hasn't affected play.
Nearly every team has guys yelling at each other from time to time. You will see Brady and Rodgers yelling at their guys occasionally. I gave you examples of Vick being yelled at by Reid of Romo yelling at his players. It is common. Why should the Skins be viewed at as different?
These are all blips on the screen but you want these to be larger issues for the Skins. Now either you think all these occurrences across the NFL are major issues or they aren't. It's silly to say they are big issues for the Skins but not issues for other teams.
See where I am going, silly boy?
No.
I am not talking about single incidents. There are a number of things for the Deadskins and the pitiful performance last week is a clear manifestation of those problems.
What would you do about Forte? Still waiting to hear from you on that issue.
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